Please don’t misunderstand me, you guys. I’m not pissed off at the pacifism…I’m pissed off at sanctimony and cowardice. I have no beef whatsoever with pacifism as a philosophy. I personally think it is a tad naive and/or misguided. So what? That’s my opinion, but I respect differing opinions if I believe they are well thought-out, of course. I tried to explain my annoyance in my first post, but perhaps I was not clear. I am annoyed by those who convey their belief that they have attained a higher moral understanding than the rest of us who may abhor war but still believe there are situations that call for it. I am annoyed by folks who call themselves pacifists but don’t do a blessed thing about it other than vote for the Dems, and maybe stand out on a street corner preaching to the converted. I am annoyed by those who criticize the soldiers for doing the job we hired them to do. Certainly, the pacifists I am having this discussion with don’t necessarily fit into any or all of those categories. Certainly, I can hardly blame MrDibble for our war, can I?
I DO believe that it’s easy to be a pacifist in this country. Really, all you have to do is declare yourself one. That is what I’m referring to. Currently, there are not too many situations where one might be challenged on it in any meaningful way. And what really gets me is the fact that so many of them don’t even go out of their way to be challenged. Please explain to me why on EARTH a fairly large group of people would protest the war EVERY WEEKEND in a town where the vast majority agrees with them? What is this going to accomplish, other than giving them a rosy glow of self-satisfaction? Seriously?
And as far as those who go back far enough to have been at Kent State, sure, a few folks around here might have been here. Every baby boomer in Chicago claims they were in the middle of the fray here during the '68 convention. Some folks were. But most weren’t, let’s face it. The honest ones will admit to you that they talked a good game, but didn’t really do much about it. MrDibble, I appreciate the fact that you feel a kinship with those who are like-minded to you, and I understand that each and every one of us do not wish for those troops to be killing on our behalf. But seriously, the 60s were a little out of control here, but you do not need to kid yourself into thinking that it was like living in a police state, because it surely wasn’t. Making that ethical choice to be a pacifist is the first step, I know, but what happens after that is so much more meaningful.
I can agree with that, and have all along. You won’t find a stronger advocate for this argument than a former soldier.
Yes and no. Original causes for our current adventure, yes - not justified by the ‘last resort’ state. Current state, no. I feel we must stay in to ‘finish the job.’ That does not mean open-ended involvement, it means a transition plan.
Both statements are kind of what I’ve said since the beginning, both of this discussion and the war itself.
Regretably, this offers aid and comfort to the Bushiviks (though I don’t think that is your intention, nevertheless…) They will be dragged to such a transition plan kicking and screaming, and then they will do everything in their power to drag their feet. One more Friedman Unit, then another, and then another.
We cannot mold Iraq into a liberal parliamentary democracy, it is not within our power, The “Iraqis” can do that if they choose, but there is scant evidence that they will. Our premise was wrong, our actions were wrong, why should we believe that the outcome will be different? Have you any evidence to offer?
Perhaps we had a moral obligation. But a moral obligation paid for in blood and treasure with no hope of success is a futile form of penance, and the penance will be suffered by our best and brightest, who had no voice in this disastrous decision. Hope is not a plan, and penance is not a strategy.
I don’t see how. Bush and his sorry groupies will have the Iraq debacle hung about their necks for all time. Most if not all of the problems we are facing, whilst absolutely could have been avoided with never engaging in the first place, could most likely have been avoided by having a decent plan as well as defined success criteria. They couldn’t even plan for anything other than the rosiest of outcomes, and ignored both history and the better judgement of our allies in the rush to war. Let that haunt them forever - I don’t see how trying our best to salvage some of this horrible situation is anything for them to be proud of.
It is not their choice, but do you honestly think any professional soldier, much less a seasoned General or Admiral, will look at the current morass and not start immediately thinking of the best and fastest way out of it? Do you think any modern general officer, most of whom were raw recruits during and after Vietnam, would forget the lessons of that conflict and the cost it extracted from our military?
Only that violence has decreased, as the Iraqi government has gained strength. I can only hope that this trend continues.
We do have hope for success; now we need to turn that hope into a plan. I’m not the man for this - I have neither the power nor the experience to fix it. And taking away the religious overtones of your argument, we’re not paying penance. We’re paying the cost of poor planning. I believe we’ve learned something, and the next guy or girl will have a mandate to get our soldiers out with maximum speed and minimum loss of honor. That’s enough for me, not through choice, but because it has to be.
How do you know this? Do you peer into their souls with a glance, take their inventory while driving by? Are you the ShadowFeena, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of persons?
What would you have them do that they are not doing? Whats your plan?
No, then you have to live it. You presume that all who so declare are as shallow and facile as those you despise. On what grounds? Does this include all the Amish, and the Quaker? What might they do to establish their* bona fides * in your all-seeing judgement?
Your obedient minionis await their marching orders. And those orders are “Sit down, shut up and be polite”? Rather thin gruel, don’t you think?
So the honest amongst us are those who shit on us, and the rest are hypocrites?
You toss off your disapproval of the architects of this monstrosity in a couple of words, a passing glance, and then offer pages and pages of bile and rancor for those trying to stop it. Frankly, my dear, it seems rather disproportionate.
I don’t read then post in these threads to try and change someone’s viewpoint but rather try to understand another’s.
Your actions are based on your morality, different than mine.Leaving aside accusations of sanctimony,cowardice and Dorito munching, what do you expect war protesters to do? They are guaranteed rights in the U.S. whether they served militarily or no, and if that’s “easy”, isn’t that the way it was so designed, and we want it still? Why should disagreement with government action be life threatening, does that give greater credence to the plaint?
It’s my perception, both with people here on the SDMB and IRL. Surely, you have a perception of me, don’t you? Hopefully, it’s not too far removed from who I actually am and how I intend to present myself. I’m assuming that others are projecting who they are and how they intend to present themselves.
Well, as I said in my first post, why don’t they try protesting somewhere where there actually might be some opportunity to change minds & hearts? Somewhere where the prevailing opinion is different from theirs. Somewhere where it may get a little uncomfortable for them to have to present and defend their position.
Absolutely I don’t, which I thought I made clear in my last post.
I would never presume to judge the actions or thoughts of someone who didn’t display those actions and thoughts to my face. If I see a certain behavior or am told a certain opinion, I will probably form an opinion about it. And drop the “how dare you judge” schtick…you are no better than anyone in that regard.
Just the opposite.
I have no idea what you’re getting at here.
Whatever…that doesn’t worry me. There’s plenty of bile and rancor towards the war around here. I don’t need to add to it.
As I said, I CAN’T tell you what a correct moral code is. This isn’t being coy, this reflects my lack of omniscience, or if you’d rather my lack of confidence in my own rectitude. All I can do is to make my best guess, and live my life and perceive the world according to it.
The relevant part of that code is that you can never cede your obligation to make moral decisions at every second: you might try, but the obligation remains with you at every second. You can’t contract ethics out to a commanding officer, not even if doing so makes your side likelier to win a war. You are morally responsible for every choice you make, whether or not someone told you to make that choice.
Sara, your ideas don’t intrigue me, nor do I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. You’re not naming names, but I think you’re referring to me, and I think you’re idiotically off-base if you are.
Why on earth should we care about your annoyance, given its stupid basis? I did not hire anybody to fight in any war: the government took taxes from me by force to pay them, but I did not hire them. Suggesting I did is terrorist logic, that’s the sort of “everybody’s responsible for the war” shit that people use to target civilians for bombing.
No, not everybody is responsible for war. The people who choose to fight the war are responsible for war.
Yikes. I’m sorry, then, for overreacting, and don’t presume to judge whether your calling the unnamed person sanctimonious is appropriate. :o It’s been a shitty week and I’ve been terribly grumpy all during. Again, my apologies.
I think you’ll find I agree with you in the broad strokes. The only place we have yet to agree is in what actually constitutes the moral code. I don’t believe it’s an absolute, I believe it’s entirely dependent on environment, and I also believe it’s evolutionary in nature.
Let me put it another way - my moral code now is different from when I was 18. I didn’t contract out with someone else for it during my military years, I agreed with the choices being made. I’ve changed since then, as has my personal situation, and the choices I was happy to let someone else make I would no longer be happy to have someone else make.
Sir! I hasten to point out that **Ms. Sarah ** is the very paragon of virtuous American womanhood, and I have long maintained a strict “dinner and a show” minimum! Take care that you not put yourself at hazard to a sound thrashing!
As for Dan’l, well, perhaps the less said the better…
