Just get another job (on the service sector)

The BBQ Pit
141

I have a pretty strong background in Sociology, so you will forgive me if I pretty much kick the interpersonal elements of this debate to the curb. This is not to say that these elements are not important, rather that I think that the systemic or societal element of this issue is being tragically underplayed.

I am reminded in a lot of ways of the Stanford Prison Experiment. This was a pretty famous study where in several run of the mill folks were given the rolls of “Prisoner” and “Guard”. The study itself has a lot of nuances, but the gestalt seems to be that once given these rolls, the students began to act like guards and prisoners do in real life, suggesting that the way that people behave is very strongly influenced by power dynamics or what is expected of them.

So, msmith537, when you say things like:

I would say that you are contributing to the problem. Again, I am not talking about the interpersonal level. I am talking about the institution of customer service. Your statements, and indeed your whole post, seem to show a level of contempt for that occupation. I would argue that attitudes like this basically feed the problem.

It is clear to me that in general the folks that work in professions other than the service sector, at best, have feelings of superiority to the service sector workers and at worst some elements of contempt. What I think would be an interesting matter to think about is which came first; societies contempt for the service sector, or the etiquette and decorum of the service sector beginning to erode.

142

First of all, you can’t really look at this from a strictly sociological viewpoint nor from strictly an interpersonal one, so “kicking the interpersonal viewpoint to the curb” would be detrimental to this debate, if you don’t mind me saying so. I’m not disregarding your area of expertise, I’d appreciate it if you don’t disregard mine.

I’m very familiar with the Stanford experiement (I grew up near there actually) and it’s really a good comparison. I can really see your view now, thank you.

I never said there wasn’t a sociological element to the decline of customer service because there most certainly is. But I don’t believe it’s soley responsible. I also don’t think that an increase in wages, although very much needed, would be an easy “fix” to the problem.

143

And to answer your question, I think the erosion of etiquette and decorum of the service sector is a contributing factor to the “contempt” of the service sector although I’m not quite sure if I agree with you on the “contempt” factor. I don’t think people have contempt for those in the service sector because most people realize that those jobs are needed. I think people have more of a contempt for those in the service sector who treat them badly, as customers.

144

And to answer your question, I think the erosion of etiquette and decorum of the service sector is a contributing factor to the “contempt” of the service sector although I’m not quite sure if I agree with you on the “contempt” factor. I don’t think people have contempt for those in the service sector because most people realize that those jobs are needed. I think people have more of a contempt for those in the service sector who treat them badly, as customers. This of course will begin to breed contempt from those in the service sector towards customers who treat them rudely and so the cycle begins. It’s been illustrated right here in this thread, actually.

145

Yes, I believe that it is where these two things meet that the truth can be found. As I have stated, I realize that my inclination is to look at places other than the interpersonal level (although I am gaining an appreciation for the folks that have this as their focus, it just is not the way that my brain is wired).

As far as wages go, to be sure this is not a magic bullet. While it would go a long way towards providing a better pool of applicants as well as all of the other salutary effects mentioned in earlier posts, I do not think that the pay individual X more =individual X suddenly cares about his job equation will hold. It will take time and there are a lot of other reforms to be made.

I guess that there are a few things that kind of stick in my craw about this issue from a societal point of view. The first is that we need these people in order to function as an industrial first world society. Someone has to pick up the garbage, serve us out cappuccinos, and all of those other jobs in the service sector. With that true, it is rather shameful the way that we treat these folks.

While I am now a tech Support guy (sort of spanning customer service and white collar work) I have worked for many years as a chef. Looking at that job (and by extension, the jobs of the servers that I knew), I do not think that a lot of people really appreciate the sheer physical misery of a lot of service sector jobs (side not, I have very little experience in retail but remember enough to know that it was harder than it seems).

I guess that the reason that I bring all of that up is that there seems to be this societal contempt that derives from the notion that anyone can do these jobs. This may be true, but not many people can do them for very long, and I think that we can do better as a society.

146

I am just not sure. When someone is making statements about folks being in the job that they deserve because they have no education and no marketable skills, this strikes me as contempt. While I may be wrong, and these statements could be directed at only the individual laborer that happened to be rude, it feels as if it is directed at the laborer class as a whole, and I find that to me it sounds as if the speaker is looking down his nose.

On a completely different tack, I think that I agree with you that we are in a cycle here. What I wonder is, of those trapped in the cycle, who actually has the ability and power to break it?

147

I for one am only advocating the expected level of customer service wherever I go. There is nothing that says x dollars = y level of customer service. If McDonald’s is hiring then I am pretty sure there is an expected level of decorum and service their employees are expected to represent. If they offer minimum wage or $10 that does not change. The fact is that when someone accepts a job from McDonald’s they are accepting that they are to provide the proper level of customer service at the salry offered. If they don’t want that job at that pay then don’t take that job, it is that simple.

I am not asking for extra service. I don’t expect someone to be waiting on me hand and foot at a fast food restaurant. We are talking about recieving less then what is minimally expected. Is it waxing my car while I eat lunch? No. Is it a smile? Debatable. Is it talking to me in a friendly, civilized manner? Probably. Is it taking my order, before straightening out your plans for that evening with your fellow co-workers? Definitely.

148

I agree with both parts of that.

I’m confused, did I miss what this is in response to? You are payed to work there and service the customer. (That sounds a little, um, dirty)

I usually give a store a couple of times before I stop going there, because I do understand people have bad days. But if its consistant bad service, its obviously a store issue, so I don’t go back.

I know you can’t run out and find another job easily, but if someone doesn’t have the motivation to do well at a fairly simple job, how are they going to have the motivation to move on to something better? It doesn’t fall into your lap.

A good job search takes a long time, I realize that. Transportation, hours, pay, all that stuff means time and effort need to be expended to research and figure out if you want the new job. Not just papers or online, “pounding the pavement”. Again, if someone doesn’t have the motivation to do that research, chances are they won’t do well in a more responsible job anyway.

It is very possible to get out of the McD’s - Walmart rut. It just takes time and hard work. Make a plan, stick to it, and within a couple of years (if not sooner) you’ll be out of it too.

(BTW, all those “you’s” in here are general, I’m not trying to pick on you Guin)

149

I don’t see it as contempt at all. I see it as realism. I see contempt coming from service folks towards professionals moreso actually. That explains why so many service workers get so indignant when it’s pointed out if they had a degree, they could get a better job. If it’s an unsolicited opinion, that’s one thing, the indignation would be warrented, but if the service worker is complaining about how much they hate their job, it seems entirely appropriate.

For example, I_Dig_Bad_Boys constantly complains on this message board about her various service jobs and how much she hates working in the service industry. But when people tell her to go to school so she can get out of the service industry that she hates so much, she makes excuse after excuse. In that kind of situation, I don’t believe the people telling her to go to school are showing contempt for her position at all. They’re merely trying to provide a solution to her self proclaimed problem. And then of course you have all of the other service industry folks come marching in declaring “you think it’s so easy? It’s not!” Well duh. No one said getting a degree was easy, but obviously it’s possible, since everyone advocating it has done it.

Basically, what I’m saying is that a lot of the contempt you claim you see from professional people towards service industry people is actually the other way around and I think a lot of it stems from the hyper defensiveness of a lot of service industry folks. Yeah, you have to deal with a lot of assholes in the service industry. But you know what? You’ve got to deal with just as many assholes in the corporate world. Only real difference is you deal with a lot of different ones for short amounts of time in the service industry, whereas in the corporate world you have to deal with a few of them, on an ongoing basis.

Very interesting question. I think there has to be some amount of give from both sides.

150

“Society’s” fault, eh?

All I’m hearing hear is a lot of people unhappy about their lot in life and using that unhappieness to justify acting out in a passive-agressive manner. There will always be jobs that, for lack of a better term, “suck”. Society will always have unpleasent tasks to perform and those tasks will inevitably fall to those with the least ability to choose their career path.

I knew a guy in high school who after dropping out of community college and being fired from a box factory refused to apply to McDonalds because it was “beneath him”. We told him “you are a twenty something college dropout with no job who lives with his parents. Where do you think you SHOULD work if not McDonalds?”

That is the harsh reality of life. One does not choose “Drive-thru attendent” as a career path. A person generally does not say "hey…when I grow up, I want to be a Starbucks waitress or a video clerk. These are jobs that people take because they have few employment options. The general opinion that these low level positions are generally reserved for kids and early twenty somethings as summer or after school jobs. If you are still working at these jobs as an adult, it is often considered a sign that you are doing something horribly wrong with your life.
The real problem is attitude. A lot of employees have this attitude of “I’m better than this job, I’m smarter than this idiot customer, I know more than my boss, this job sucks so I don’t have to do it, blah blah blah”. Ever hear of an IT support person who thinks the user’s questions are beneath him? Attitude is contagious. If you roll your eyes at the customer, forget orders, talk on the phone and otherwise act like a jerk, people will treat you like one. I am much more inclined to give a kind word to the deli clerk who remembers that I don’t like tomatos than those stupid mother-fucking morons at the burger joint on my corner who can’t remember an order more complex than “burger” (and a vanilla shake -…what kind of shake was that? -vanilla…is my shake ready? -Oh I forgot!!)

The average person does not go into a store trying to be a jerk. People get frustrated when they can’t find a product or they’re in a hurry or they percieve that the counter person doesn’t give a shit. A customers agitation and shortness may have nothing to do with you but it’s your job to deal with it. If you can’t, go work in a factory.
You say it is a societal issue? Well we all make society the place it is.

151

**msmith537 **, You are not listening. If you read the posts that I have made, you will notice that (although my strong inclination is to look at things from the point of view of society) that I have acknowledged the personal level at which this problem also exists. Further perusal of my posts will indicate that I am interested more in talking about the societal level of this issue not only because of my tendency to look first at that level, but because I think that too much emphasis is being placed of the personal level. If you do not agree with that point, fine, but do not pretend that I am stating that the whole problem is only a societal one as that is simply not true.

I do understand that if a person happens to lack education, cultural capital, in-demand skill or even simple ambition that his options are limited. No one is arguing that this is not the case. I will still state that the way that you state this fact sounds condescending to me and from that I would extrapolate that when you enter a store that you feel that you are better than the person that is waiting on you. That is part of the problem.

I also get that society is made up of individuals, but that does not mean that all of the things that happen in a society can be explained away at an individual level. Much like any multi-celled organism, a society is far greater than the sum of its parts.

152

Aww man, I wrote another post but apparently the hamsters didn’t think too much of it.

Society is also a lot different now than it was a few generations ago. At this point in time, pretty much anyone can recieve an education if they really want to. I think that also has something to do with it. In the past, only the wealthy were able to obtain an education and get a professional job, that’s not really the case anymore. I think that’s also why people tend to look at those who choose not to pursue higher education and instead choose to remain at McDonalds and Burger King as lazy.

Look at the following example:

Person A has a professional job. Person A has a professional job because they worked their butt off to get a college degree. Person A goes into the store where Person B is a cashier. Person B is very disgruntled and pissed off because he or she is stuck working a dead end retail job for a company who thinks of him or her just another clog in the machine. Person A greets Person B. Person B responds by giving Person A crazy attitude because they hate their job, ect ect. Person B is just thinking “hey dude, don’t take your unhappiness out on me. You chose to be here, I chose not to. You’re not happy? That’s your problem.”

Who’s showing more “contempt” in that scenerio? Person A for taking out his or her frustrations and general unhappiness on Person B, or Person B for calling them on it?

Posters that constantly bust out the “don’t tell me to just get another job!” song and dance aren’t being realistic, IMHO. They claim there aren’t any other jobs out there. Customer service jobs? Maybe. Thing is, if you’re unhappy in customer service then it’s going to be no different working at McDonalds than it is at Burger King or Walmart vs. KMart. If you’re unhappy in customer service, you’re unhappy in customer service. You need to go to school and work to get out of it. If you’re happy in customer service and just had a bad day or something, then say so.

153

I guess that when folks say that there is no reason for anyone to not go out and get an education and, by extension, a better job that I tend to think that this is a sentiment of privilege that does not look at the very real factors that make this an almost insurmountable task for some folks.

I would also state that if you are the professional that it costs you a lot less to not have contempt for the folks that are serving you. For me, even on the interpersonal level (which, again, I will admit has nuances that tend to pass me by) a lot of this boils down to a power imbalance and (being the good liberal that I am) I feel that it is up to those that have more power to wield it in a humane way.

Here are a few things that I think are worth considering. Society as a whole has a vested interest in having a supply of menial workers. While this sucks if you are one of those people, it is quite functional for the group. I would submit that a lot of the obstacles to people leaving the service sector, while not necessarily some bizarre conspiracy, have an element of deliberateness to them. It would be nice if we could make it up to these folks in other ways.

I guess that what I am saying is that if the worker is not happy, I look at this as all of our problem. Also, I will point out that in the scenario that you describe, the Service Worker person is showing contempt for the Professional person (which we all agree is wrong) but that there is a contempt that I see on the part of the Professional class for the laborer class as a whole. I tend to have a bigger problem with that.

You had noted, I believe, that you have seen this contempt the other way around (and I believe stronger). All that I can say is that my experience has been that this is more a case of envy, and that given the unequal power dynamic more understandable to me.

154

Binarydrone,

I think you’re being overly apologetic to the working class. Your post almost sounds like you expect the professional class to experience feelings of guilt for being in this class and “kiss the asses” of the working class to make up for it. I’m sorry, I can’t get behind that (pun intended).

For a small fraction of folks. Federal financial aid makes higher education very much attainable. There will always be a small subset of people that can’t pursue it, but for the overwhelming majority of the population, it’s possible. It may be harder for some than for others, but lets not confuse difficult with impossible.

How does it cost me a lot less? Contempt is a feeling, it costs nothing, only your own happiness. The power in this instance, is given, not taken. You have to allow someone to make you feel inferior, if you don’t allow them to, they won’t. Also, I’m talking about professional customers here, not management and corporate, so I don’t get what you’re saying about weilding power in a humane way. The customer doesn’t have much power over the employee, minus being able to complain to management. It’s a moot point anyway, since I’ve stated a number of times that I’m not talking about rude customers here. To do so would make this debate completely unmanagable.

I agree with you that society needs these “menial” jobs. I disagree though that anyone needs to “make it up” to the workers. The workers choose to be there. I worked hard to get a degree and enter the professional field. The cashier at McDonalds did not. Tell me why I should have anything to “make up” to him? It’s not my fault he chose to work in the service sector.

I see it as the worker’s problem if they’re not happy because the worker has a way out. If the worker chooses not to try to get out of an unhappy situation, why am I suddenly responsible? I think this is where personal responsibility comes into play. So far, you’ve advocated none.

I’ve got no doubt it’s envy. But is it my fault that someone is envious of me, or is it theirs? Name one other instance where jealousy is blamed on the object of it.

155

As someone who has been in the service industry for longer than I care to admit, I would like to mention, It’s not just the bad pay. There are many factors for causing the drop in “customer service”.
First, the rep is nothing but a paeon who is below the bottom rung of the ladder. We have no authority. None. Nada. Zilch.

We are stuck in between the company, who’s only interest is numbers, not customer satisfaction, and certainly not actually taking the time to assist the customer with very real issues. The customers are on an assembly line, and are to be shoved through the system as quickly as possible. Add to that the lack of consistancey in the education of the reps, and the pressure to make sure that customer spends as much money as possible, whether it is a service that really fits the customers needs, or not.

And we won’t even go into the morons in their ivory tower who make policy and have no clue.

On the other side, are the customers…too many of whom take “The customer is always right” to the level of zealotry (is that a word?). They make demands that we cannot (as reps) possibly give in to, and when we explain this to them, they fail to understand, argue, and demand a supervisor, who generally will break company policy to give them what they want, which only exaserbates the problem, and teaches this unruly customer that throwing a tantrum is a way to get what you want. Add to this, the customer will still complain the rep was rude, even when he/she was not, because this spoiled customer did not get what we cannot possibly give.

What does a parent generally do when their child throws a tantrum like that? Give in, and give him what he wants? Any parent worth his/her salt certainly would not! Yet, as adults, the trantrum-tossing behaviour does exactly that!

Include in this list of gripes, is the fact that the upper management, -AND- the customer refuse to see the rep as anything more than a third-class citizen, undeserving of anything that remotely resembles respect.

What do we do? What -CAN- we, as customer service reps, do to put an end to this cycle? The answer, is nothing. We are stuck in the middle, and there is no authority for us.

So, is it any wonder that many of us become surly, and rude? No.

Mind you, this does not excuse the behaviour, but it does explain it.

Let me add one final thing…as a rep in the past, I have always endeavoured to be professional with the customer. I consider it an achivement worthy to note, when I take a customer who is severely angry (and in some cases, rightfully so), and calm him down. However, as a human being with the exact same rights as the customer, I will not, and have never tolorated verbal abuse. I will make it quite clear to the customer that if they continue to behave this way, and continue to make personal attacks on me, I will, and have, disconnected the call, and made damn certain that the account is noted in detail. The management be damned.

156

And that is how it should be handled, dragon

Please note that we’re not talking about rude customers here. That’s been stated repeatedly throughout this thread. We’re talking about customer service reps who are rude with no provacation.

I believe that changes most certainly need to be changed within management. I just don’t think that innocent customers (I repeat, innocent, meaning, NOT rude) should have to bear the brunt of the service rep’s discontent. Telling customers that they should just “deal with it” is doing exactly that.

157

But…I have encountered customers, left and right, who complain that I was rude to them, when in fact I never was, I was just turning down a request for something we have no power to give.

Extreme examples(I worked for a cellphone company): One customer called wanting a phone number he had called a few days previously (Yes, we do have a record of all outgoing calls). This was -during- his billing cycle. It is against FEDERAL LAW for me to give him this information(before he had been billed for it). I am not Directory Assistance. I explained it to him…Several times. I was polite. He refused to accept this. He demanded a supervisor, and made a complaint that I had been rude to him. Why? Because I did not give him what he wanted. I -COULD NOT-.

Another customer called around Midnight, because her phone broke. She wanted it replaced IMMEDIATELY. Forget the SOP (taking the phone to be tested, and if under warranty, ordering the replacement which takes 5-7 days, or taking it in for testing, and it non-warranted, the insurance also taking 5-7 days to replace the phone). She wanted it NOW. It was physically impossible to meet her request. Yet, in her unreasonable mind, I was the one being rude, and not giving the customer what she wanted.

Not so extreme examples: A customer called in because his phone was shut off for non-paid-disconnect. He -demanded- that I restore his services immediatly. I cannot. Once it is in the system as NPD, only making a payment will restore services. It is done automaticly by the system. I explained this to the customer, and was called rude because…I didn’t give him what he wanted.

You are correct…there is no excuse for rudeness on the part of the rep…without provocation. But how many customers claim a rep was rude, when they were, in fact, doing their job in a professional manner, but could not give this customer what was an unreasonable demand? Quite often, the customer refuses to understand that there is absolutely nothing that can be done for their issue…whether real, or imagined, and after 5 minutes of repeating themselves, the rep gives up in exasperation, and just tells the customer “tough, deal with it.”

The phrase, “The Customer is Always Right,” has been the bane of every customer service rep’s existance since it was coined.

158

I agree. I’m not talking about those types of situations. I’m talking about typical customer interactions, such as taking an order at a fast food place, or cashing someone through at a retail store. Read my Smart & Final example a page or two back.

159

I think that there is an innate contempt for people working “dead-end” jobs. I think that some people who have not worked dead-end jobs (or have not for years) think all sorts of incorrect things about people working dead-end jobs. And while such customers may not always be downright rude, they exude a condescension or imatience that is not hard to detect by the person holding the dead-end job. I’ve seen it, I’ve been the target of it, and it stinks.

I know people (coworkers in my last dead-end job) that seem to be “ignorant and proud of it.” It seems to me that it is beyond comprehension to them to go to some junior college and take some classes. I don’t know what their reasons are–whether they are so in a rut that they just can’t see past it (I can sympathize with that to an extent) or they just would rather be miserable and bitter. Maybe they think they are “too old.” (Some are in their 40s and 50s.) I personally don’t think anyone is “too old” to go back to school, but I guess not everyone agrees with me. (As a side note, one of my friends went back to school to be an RN, at age 40. She’s doing very well.)

I don’t know why some people won’t get more education, but Binarydrone is right—society will always need “menial workers.” And since society needs them, they should not be treated with contempt or condescension, unless their very bad attitude warrants it. And often, these “menial workers” don’t deserve to be treated with condescension. Bear in mind, I’m not talking about abuse from customers here (which is universally acknowledged as NOT OK), I am talking about an attitude of superiority, of subtle contempt—dead-end job employees are not stupid, they can pick up on this stuff. They know that they are being “looked down on.”

While I don’t understand why some of these people won’t pursue more training, I don’t think their current life should be made miserable. I don’t think they should be looked down on as if they are a lower form of life, and believe me, they are treated like that. It’s frustrating and hurtful to get that sort of treatment, and it’s wrong. And as has been lavishly illustrated here, employers and customers contribute to the general bad treatment of these “dead end” workers.

I always thought it was ironic, how someone could see me working in a store and know that I was a lowlife, subhuman drone. But if they were in an art gallery the next day and saw my artwork, would I be a lowlife subhuman then? Would they treat me with the same condescension then? No! They’d never do that. But I am both things—a dead-end job worker, and a person who is able to get her work in art galleries and art shows. I’m the same person; just treated dramatically different (by the same kind of people) depending on which setting I’m in at the moment.

Sorry, got off on a tangent there. I guess in a nutshell I’m saying that there is a condescension and contempt for “dead-end” job workers, and it is NOT just reserved towards the sullen slackers; it’s also directed at the reasonably bright and polite workers who just happen to have a dead-end job.

160

Yosemitebabe, great post. I couldn’t agree more. I got that a lot too when I waitressed, even though I was in school. I let it roll off my back though, because I knew there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

A good question would be: do you think a certain amount of condecsention serves to motivate people to get out of dead end jobs? It sucks to be treated as sub-human. I know, I’ve been there, and I do still remember what it felt like. I still get it now from people more senior than me in my field. That’s why I ask the question. When I get it now, it’s a huge motivator to excel in my work, to “prove them wrong” in a way. It’s why I’m continuing in my education, past recieving my B.A. The condescention and desire for respect is what prods me to keep going. So, do you think that a small amount of it can be useful as a motivating factor to get out of that line of work?