Just get another job (on the service sector)

[yosemite]

lezlers wrote:

A good question would be: do you think a certain amount of condecsention serves to motivate people to get out of dead end jobs?

Possibly, but I’ve always hated the concept of bad treatment as a method to get people to better themselves.

It’s like saying, “I’m going to treat this fat person like crap, so they will be motivated to lose weight. I’m treating them badly for their own good.” Sometimes it works, but sometimes it just sinks the target of the contempt into feeling even more hopeless, making them really believe that they are really are a subhuman lowlife (or a hopeless fattie, whatever), and that they aren’t good enough for anything better, so better stop trying.

Please understand, I don’t believe you are excusing bad treatment because it “may” motivate people to be better. I don’t think you are suggesting that at all. But I have to say that even though it may get some people to try to better themselves, it’s a piss-poor way of doing it. And, it’s hurtful (whether anyone realizes it or not) to the one who is dishing out the contempt or condescension. It’s not good to feel so “superior” like that. It’s not good for the soul to honestly believe that certain other fellow humans are “subhuman,” based soley on the job they hold. It’s not an attitude that should be tolerated in any way.

[lezlers]

I agree.

I also think that even though it’s wrong, it’s not going to go away. People are just too insecure. That’s the whole reason they do it, after all, to feel better about themselves. Same reason bullies exist. Since it’s not going to go away, I’d hope that people would be able to harness it and use it to better themselves. If they don’t, they’re going to have miserable, miserable lives.

[drgnlvr]

I did, and don’t get me wrong, I agree with you, when it’s rudeness without provocation. I just wanted to point out that there might have been extenuating circumstances on many occasions, where the rep could very well have been accused wrongly.

Let me also comment on the number of people who claim that the customer is polite most of the time. This is simpley not true. An example from my most recent job…and a typical night on the phones: (yes, there is a list that I kept one night, due to an ongoing bet between a friend and myself)

Out of 56 calls I handled, I received…(the numbers won’t add up, because some were multiple commiters of customer crimes)

*number of customers who demanded I restore services to them, though they were two months behind on their bill… 35
*number of customers who went over their plan minutes, and called me a liar when I told them…24
*number of customers who took the phone with them into the bathroom…5
*number of customers who ate, belched, or whatever in my ear(without saying at least “excuse me”)…too numerous to count
*number of customers who were being “serviced” by their girlfriend while on the phone with me…2 (it was a busy night for that)
*number of customers who demanded that I do something that are outright illegal…10 (this encompasses several things, such as giving a password to a non-acct holder)
*number of customers who SCREAMED at me from the moment I answered the phone…12
*number of customers who insinuated or flat-out accused me of being rude…all of the above.
*number of customers who thanked me for doing what I could…1
And the entire time, I was polite and professional to every last one of them. Although, there were a few with whom I was sorely tempted to give them a lesson in old fashioned common courtesy.

[lezlers]

drgnlvr,

You continue to argue a point not even being discussed. Customers being rude isn’t the issue here. If you keep posting about it, I fear the thread is going to derail. We’ve gotten into a good discussion and your posts are making it look like you’re intentionally trying to steer it away from it’s course. I don’t think that’s your intent, but it’s what it’s looking like.

[drgnlvr]

*Originally posted by drgnlvr *
**
*number of customers who demanded that I do something that are outright illegal…10 (this encompasses several things, such as giving a password to a non-acct holder)
**

My apologies…I was sidetracked (ooooo…shiney), and ended up with evil syntax…
That should have been :**number of customers who demanded that I do something that IS outright illegal…10 *

[drgnlvr]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
**drgnlvr,
Customers being rude isn’t the issue here. **

Customers being rude on general terms is not the issue.

You are talking about reps being rude without provocation. This is what I was attempting to address. My apologies, and please allow me to try again.

IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, you have had reps be rude to you without provocation. And yes, you are right, it is uncalled for. But you can also question whether you had done something to create that atmosphere. As was pointed out previously, people can, and quite frequently -DO- look down at the rep with an air of condemnation…that we are in a rut of our own doing, and that we can just pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and move up in the world. It is not that easy, I assure you. And sorry, but looking down your nose at a rep is not the way to encourage them to try to move up. Being treated as less than human may work for you, but it doesn’t work for the rest of the human race.

We are all entitled to be treated with a bit of dignity and respect, -UNTIL WE SHOW OTHERWISE-

However, I was attempting to point out that many people you might speak to who -CLAIM- they were treated rudely by a rep may just be talking about sour grapes, or their own lack of common courtesy.

[lezlers]

Okay drgnlvr, you’re on the verge of insulting me.

#1. I’ve stated many times in this thread that I’ve worked a long time in customer service. Longer than I’ve been out of it, actually.

#2. I’ve also stated that I go out of my way to be friendly to customer service reps and to make their job easier, because I’m empathetic to their jobs.

#3. I’ve also already addressed the “you think it’s so easy, it’s not!” song and dance you just sang.

Please don’t imply that I walked into that store like I owned the place as you seem to be doing. A customer service rep with an inferiority complex that thinks every customer is looking down on them and lashes out accordingly is in the wrong.

Thinking someone is looking down on you is not “provocation”. Provocation is a customer actually saying or doing something to you.

[drgnlvr]

Insult is not my intention, but if you want to take it that way, that is your choice.

The OP was about why customer service has gone downhill…I was attempting to point out my own theories. I do not believe I was attempting to derail the thread.

You simply will not get consistently good service from the service industry until you can have a work force that is paid a decent wage, competently trained and respected by both management and the general public. So sorry. Think of putting up with rude service industry workers as part of the hidden cost for all of the fabulous low low prices that you get.

YOU are defending the customers side of the issue.

I am defending the reps side of the issue.

Not too hard to figure out.

Your claim is that often this rudeness is not provoked by the customer. I disagree.

You claim that a condescending attitude helps you try to do better, I am pointing out that this is rarely the case with other people.

Incidently, this claim is why I questioned if you might not have inadvertently provoked some of the rude customer service you have experienced.

I was also pointing out that there are many customers who claim they are treated rudely by reps, when all that happened is the rep did not give them something they were not entitled to. That is not saying YOU are making that claim for your own experience. I am saying that you are getting heresay from other customers.

I am also a customer. I treat the reps with respect, and a business-like manner. I find it interesting that in the 42 years I have been on this planet, I can count the number of reps who werte rude or incompetant in the low 2 digit numbers.

[yosemite]

lezlers wrote:
I agree.

I also think that even though it’s wrong, it’s not going to go away.

But we shouldn’t just throw up our hands and not even attempt to address it, not even attempt to educate people on the simple fact that dead-end job workers are people too, and have actually have feelings. We may not get everyone to understand, but we’ve gotta at least try.

People are just too insecure. That’s the whole reason they do it, after all, to feel better about themselves. Same reason bullies exist.

But this subtle contempt exists in many people, not just the “bully” types. And some of these people are teaching their kids this attitude. And so on. I know many very nice people (one of them’s my sister) who have a tinge of this kind of attitude.

Since it’s not going to go away, I’d hope that people would be able to harness it and use it to better themselves.

But that’s bullshit. Injustice, crappy treatment is WRONG. There is no excuse for it. It’s true that we can’t get rid of a lot of bad things (racism, homophobia, agism) but does that mean that the victims of this kind of treatment should just “suck it up” and try to “better themselves”? That they shouldn’t be sick of it and fed up with it and try to fight against it? And that we shouldn’t support them in their fight? (Not that I’m saying you wouldn’t support them in their fight, mind…)

If they don’t, they’re going to have miserable, miserable lives.

And that gets back to an earlier point—you agree that society needs “menial workers” to do the mundane things (like sanitize our public telephones), right? So since we all agree that society still needs these workers, why should they be punished for fulfilling a need, by being treated like crap by everyone else? Isn’t the low pay they are receiving and the (often) tedious work that they endure punishment enough? Aren’t these things also enough “incentive” for such people to “better themselves” (if they are inclined to do so), without having to heap contempt on top of it?

[drgnlvr]

yosemitebabe, thank you for stating much more clearly exactly what I was attempting to say.

[lezlers]

Yosemitebabe, I’m not saying I advocate for customers to treat employees badly! I’m with you on that. No one has never said it’s a GOOD thing for customers to treat employees badly. All I am saying is that employees need to take some personal responsibility for the performance of their job. They can’t be rude and blame it on the general way they think they’re being treated. You shouldn’t be pissed at Joe because Mark did you wrong. I’ve NEVER once said I advocate employees being treated badly by customers. That is why I’ve been so adamant about expressing the fact that I was specifically not referring to those instances. I’m speaking in general terms.

And drgnlvr, that quote you attributed to me isn’t even mine. And you can take your passive agressive little digs at the way you THINK I treat customers and shove them up your ass. Denying the fact that service is even on the decline and that it’s all in customer’s heads is the most ridiculous argument I’ve ever seen. If you don’t believe customer service in general has declined just say it.

[yosemite]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
Yosemitebabe, I’m not saying I advocate for customers to treat employees badly!

Of course. I always knew that.

No one has never said it’s a GOOD thing for customers to treat employees badly.

Well, actually, you’ve stated that bad treatment might “inspire” these employees to “better themselves.” Is not that a “good” thing?

All I am saying is that employees need to take some personal responsibility for the performance of their job.

Fine, and I am with you there.

But whether or not they take personal responsibility for their performance, they will still be treated like a subhuman, because a lot of people (even nice non-bullying people) have the impression that people in dead-end jobs are lesser human beings. Maybe these “job elitists” don’t realize they even feel this way, but their attitude is subtly obvious to others. And to this reality, you respond that, “Well, it’s not nice that people do this, but it’s not going to stop, so maybe such treatment will inspire the victims of such treatment to better themselves!”

To which I say—bullshit. I know you are just trying to find a “lemonade” situation for these people, but it’s still BULL SHIT. This subtle contemptuous attitude (perhaps not always downright rudeness, but a latent condescending contempt) is widespread. Maybe it won’t manifest itself in rudeness, maybe it’ll be a “kill the dummy with kindness” attitude, or whatever. It’s wrong, and it sucks. And the people who have this attitude should be taken to task for it. Do you not agree?

You shouldn’t be pissed at Joe because Mark did you wrong. I’ve NEVER once said I advocate employees being treated badly by customers.

Of course not, but you think that if they never want to “better” themselves, then that’s their lot in life—to be “miserable”, because people will treat them like crap, because “that’s the way it is; it’s never going to stop.” And that sucks.

We need people to do these menial jobs, so shouldn’t we try to at least try to help make their lives a little less miserable? True, some won’t ever want to “better themselves,” but why should they, if they can tolerate the low pay and yucky job duties? Why should contempt “come with the territory” for them? Why should that be something that will “never change” for them?

I understand completely that you don’t advocate the contempt, but your main comments on the subject seem to revolve around suggesting that they suck it up and better themselves, so they can remove themselves from the situation where they will be treated with contempt. (Because God Forbid we expect people stop treating them with contempt! ;)) But if they all did that, if they all “bettered themselves” and got out of the menial job biz, who would make sure our public telephones were clean? And what about the people with “slightly-below average” intelligence, but who are not, nor never will be candidates for anything other than “menial” jobs? No matter how much they want to, they can only “better” themselves so much. Are they forever destined to be “miserable” people, then?

Sorry, I know I am coming down hard on you, and I don’t mean it to be that way. But I’ve heard the “they are treating you like shit to inspire you to do better” line far too often, and I have to say that I’ve never much cared for it.

[drgnlvr]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
**
And drgnlvr, that quote you attributed to me isn’t even mine. And you can take your passive agressive little digs at the way you THINK I treat customers and shove them up your ass. Denying the fact that service is even on the decline and that it’s all in customer’s heads is the most ridiculous argument I’ve ever seen. If you don’t believe customer service in general has declined just say it. **

First off, now you are becoming insulting, and you are apparently not reading my entire posts.

That of course, is your problem.

Second, I did not attribute the quote to you. Nowhere in that post did I say this was your quote. I was quoting part of the OP…or did you not read the original post to this thread?

Since you apparently are the only person here who seems incapable of understanding what I was saying, perhaps you need to reevaluate your reading comprehension abilities.

And if your attitude toward me is any indication of your attude toward the poor rep, no wonder you get crappy service.

[drgnlvr]

By the way lezlers…that last line was, indeed a dig. And rather blatant, which is more my style. I don’t play passive-aggressive. But it appears that you do.

[johnnyk]

I’ve worked in Customer Service Call Centers for over 20 years now. What I have seen isn’t a decline in customer service so much as it is an INCREASE of the sense of “entitlement” some callers have.

“You’re going to give me a credit off this bill because it’s too high and I can’t afford it.”

No. I am not. I don’t care if you HAVE been a customer of ours since God was a kid, I’m not about to lose my job just because you can’t get a grip on your bills.

Lezlers, I don’t know how long you were in Customer Service or if you ever worked in a Call Center. It’s a lot different dealing with people on the phone than it is in person. I say that, not as an insult to your intelligence, but simply to point out the differences as some that read this may not grasp the fact.

When you deal with people face to face, you have many more cues to feed off of…expression, body language, etc. On a phone call. all you have is tone of voice and words used. As a Customer Service Rep, I have hung up on MANY callers who have started out by saying, “You listen to me you S.O.B…!!!”. I WILL NOT put up with that. I don’t get paid enough to so I won’t. Go find someone else to verbally abuse because I ain’t yer boy. They wouldn’t have dared talk that way to me in person. It’s the old, “Behind a telephone/computer I’m 10ft tall and bullet proof” mentality coming into play.

In short, the supposed decline in customer service is, in actuality, a decline in the caliber of customers using customer service, IMO.

[Binarydrone]

*Originally posted by drgnlvr *
**By the way lezlers…that last line was, indeed a dig. And rather blatant, which is more my style. I don’t play passive-aggressive. But it appears that you do. **

OK, as the OP I want to weigh in here for a moment. Although we are in the Pit, there is actually a debate happening here. People are exchanging ideas, and learning things. Respectfully, you are not contributing anything to this process at the moment.

[drgnlvr]

**Binarydrone[/], You are correct. That comment was off the subject. My apologies.

[lezlers]

Whoah. Being a customer service advocate myself, I’m not really understanding when exactly I became the villian here, but I guess I need to explain myself, mostly out of respect for you, Yosemitebabe. I believe that drgnlvr has been trying to bait me from the beginning, turn this thread ugly and is going to remain convinced I’m a “customer from hell” no matter how much I deny it, so I won’t waste my keystrokes.

Yosemitebabe, looking back on my posts I can see how it might appear that I’m somehow unintentionally advocating condecsention towards customer service employees. Please believe that’s not the case. You mentioned that I was trying to make a “lemonaide” situation, that was exactly what I was trying to do. If you can’t completely change the system overnight, try to adjust to it in the meantime. That’s always been my philosophy. I don’t think all customer service reps should “better” themselves becauase a whole lot of them are totally happy with their chosen professions. More power to 'em. I can’t wait until I’m in a career that I totally enjoy. I’m only talking about customer service reps who hate their jobs and want to leave the industry anyway. Those are the reps that should harness the inevitable “condecsention” they’re going to recieve. Because they’re going to recieve it, regardless. We may have to just agree to disagree on that aspect. I don’t think it’s right. I think it should stop, but how do you get someone to stop doing something that they’re most likely not even aware they’re doing? You said that many times customers don’t realize they’re guilty of it and that too much smiling is comprable to smug rudness (I’m paraphrasing here). I don’t know about you, but the next time I"m in a store now, I’m going to be paranoid about how I’m coming across to the service rep. “Do they think I’m being smug? Am I being too friendly?” I hardly think that’s fair to the customer who only wants to buy a bagel. I think the customer service rep needs to take some personal responsibility on that front, too. If I walk into a store and tell the cashier “hi”, Susy can take it as “talking down” while Joe can take it as just saying “hi,” depending on how they feel about their jobs. The customer doesn’t ever have control over how the service rep is going to interpret the message. There’s too many cognitive “middle men”. You get where I’m coming from on this?

johnnyk, no I’ve never worked in a call center, I’d never want to, I bet you get a whole lot of assholes calling. I think of that as a different kind of work though. Typically, people call call centers when they have a problem, yes? So you’re catching people when they’re already upset about something, the cards are already stacked, so to speak. That’s why I was trying to steer drgnlvr away from her examples of call center experiences. It’s a whole different scenerio and thus, doesn’t really apply to this conversation.

binarydrone, thanks for attempting to maintain some sort of civility in this thread. I look forward to your response to my previous posts, and this one.

[johnnyk]

My apologies. Because of my job background, I automatically think “Call Center” when I see or hear “Customer Service”.

I can say that the few times I’ve had to use customer service in like a Wal-Mart or Sears, I’ve never had any problems. The reps were always courteous and businesslike. They weren’t gushing or trying to act like my New Best Friend, but they WERE civil and did what I asked of them with no problems.

[lezlers]

That’s great. I get good service more often than bad usually, but I wouldn’t say that customer service is on the decline in general. The few instances where I’ve gotten bad service, it’s been really bad and it tends to cancel out the incidences of good service. I’m also speaking from my experience working in customer service and the attitudes of my co-workers. A lot of them really didn’t give a fuck, and it showed.