Just how backwards is Saudi Arabia?

The latest news coming out of Saudi Arabia is for the blogger who is going to receive 1,000 public lashes, to be delivered 50 a week for one year, along with ten years in prison and one million riyals fine. Being the humanitarians that they are, the second round of 50 lashes was withheld this Friday for medical reasons, saying his present lashes hasn’t healed enough yet.

So what are his charges? Raif was officially charged with adopting liberal thought, founding a liberal website, and insulting Islam. Raif was found guilty of blasphemy and apostasy. A Pew Research poll still finds that a large number of Muslim countries still favor the death penalty for leaving Islam, but it looks like SA will let him keep his head.

Reading from the link I provided it says in the same month that ISIS beheaded the journalist of James Foley, SA publically beheaded 19 people. The crimes ranged from smuggling cannabis, to sorcery. Limb amputations for theft are also sanctioned by the state religion.

What strange bedfellows we have for allies. Anyone have any experience living in SA? Ever attended a public beheading or flogging?

I have had to work there, for a few weeks at a time, on a few occasions. You may think they are backward, but they are simply following their laws, and since it’s an absolute monarchy what the people want, assuming it’s different than what they currently have, doesn’t really matter that much.

To your point their justice system is extremely efficient compared to other countries. I remember on one trip I was watching the news on a Monday evening and they mentioned that there had been a horrendous bus accident that was caused by the driver where some kids had died, and incidentally the bus driver wasn’t licensed to drive a bus. The bus driver was arrested on the spot, the trial was held on Wednesday and he was beheaded on Friday. Swift justice by any measure. I don’t know if I would call that backward really, it’s just the way they do it there. It was mentioned after the fact that the King had chosen not to show any lenience in this particular case. He could have commuted the bus driver’s sentence or even let him go if he wanted to.

500 Lashes, the cutting off of hands and beheadings may seem backward to us, but in parts of the world this is how they deal with liars, thieves and murderers, and as a result Saudi Arabia is an extremely safe place to walk around at night. One word of advice I got from an ex-pat living there was that if I ever got into an automobile accident I should get out of my car and run as fast as I can away from the scene since as a foreigner it was automatically my fault and would take months to get sorted out by the US Embassy, meanwhile being stuck in a SA jail with very few rights.

They publicly beheaded almost 20 people last year alone. Some for sorcery. Women are forbidden to drive, because they are not men!

I’m going to go with, horribly, awfully, embarrassingly backward, by western standards.

Pretty backwards by anyone’s sense of justice. . . .

I would say that is a solid point in favor of “backwards”.

We’re not talking about 500 lashes to deal with liars, thieves and murderers. We’re talking about the specific case stated in the OP, and the punishment of 1000 lashes and ten years in prison. Care to address how this case helps make Saudi Arabia “an extremely safe place to walk around at night”?

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This is looking more for personal experiences and opinions than factual information.

Moving thread from General Questions to In My Humble Opinion.

Western standards? Hell, by civilized standards of any sort.

HOW BACKWARD IS IT?

It’s so backward, it’s actually spelled “Aibara Iduas”!

<canned laughter>

There apparently is a specific police to deal with religious offenses and such, and nobody dares cross them… not to be confused with the regular police apparatus that regulates real crimes and ensures there is no dissent about the government. Like any government, whether Saudis, Iran, N.Korea or the old USSR, this is not a rigid collection of ants following one dictators - there are factions, disputes, and tensions between them.

If you read about the revolution(s) in Egypt, there are multiple factions - the abysmal city poor, the backward uneducated religious rural folk, and the more moderate, western-exposed or -educated city folk, and the “middle” class and students who have been exposed to western thought and are less likely to feel doctrinaire about things. The revolution was driven by students and educated class fed up with repression and corruption (then hijacked by the Brotherhood and then the army.)

The same is true in Saudi Arabia population to some extent. The government tries to give everyone a job and a living wage, they even import foreign workers to do jobs the Saudis cannot or will not do (technical and menial jobs). But you have backward rural types, educated types, and a group of central authorities who could not be questioned.

A friend of mine described running into Saudi women who had gotten into the western compounds and were partying with the expats and Saudi men. At first, he did not realize they were Saudi because they were dressed western. He asked one, wouldn’t the police do something if they found them drinking and out unescorted? She said that she might be executed if her driver informed on her, but then one of her friends or relatives would kill him.

He also mentioned that if you dropped your wallet in the street you could return and pick it up the next day. Nobody would dare touch it because they were afraid if they were handling someone else’s wallet they would be arrested for theft.

He also mentioned that the standard operating procedure for the police was to arrest anyone the least remotely connected to the crime, then sort things out while the suspects sat in jail.

There was an exhibit of dinosaurs in a mall in SA a few years ago. Apparently the religious police have started stealing a page from fundamentalist US Christians, and challenging scientific evolution, so they shut it down. It resulted in insulting sarcastic tweets from various Saudis, along the lines of “the religious police don’t want to think there are other dinosaurs too”. The urban, educated types have cell phones, internet, twitter, etc.

When I was visiting Jordan, our driver stopped to help another driver for the same tour company who was having an argument with a Bedouin. The fellow had hit and killed a sheep, and the owner was demanding something like 2,000 Jordanian pounds (dollars?) about 10 times the going rate. We asked about the driver two days later, and he said it had already gone to the local court and the fee had been settled at the market rate. Maybe we need to learn a bit more about how justice works over there, when you consider the case of a 15-year-old who spent 3 years in Rikers Island because he stubbornly refused to plead guilty to something that he didn’t do… then charges were dropped. Compared to that, settling a case within a few days seems like a good idea.

As for charges - the religious police have no sense of humour or moderation. IIRC the last time someone tried charges of religious blasphemy in Canada was in Sault Ste Marie over the movie “Life of Brian” around 1980 and that was dropped very quickly. However, the Saudis take their religious laws very seriously, and like any bureaucracy, don’t want to admit afterwards what they did was a bad idea; if I had to guess, the religious court decreed the lashes, the regular courts have stepped in to say he’s not ready for the next round because they are a lot more moderate but can’t undo the other court. But any insult to Islam, any hint being told not to follow strict Islam are all serious offenses. It’s not surprising that a religious dictatorship is not as tolerant as a western democracy.

So like any society, it’s evolving. My guess is that when the change comes, it will be a palace revolt by the younger western-educated princes who will have a difficult time taking out the Wahabi religious police and it will be messy.

Yeah, my bad, I realized that just after I had sent, and actually meant for it to go there. Thanks for moving it.

If I read the link right, 19 of those beheadings were just for that one month. In 2013 Amnesty International says SA was averaging two beheadings a week starting out for that year, not sure if they kept that average up. In 2011, AI says at least 82 executions took place. It said 2012 showed a similar number.

dolphinboy, I wonder just how many in SA really want this. I suspect, many might have a different opinion in private, but in public give a supporting voice to whatever the SA does for fear of repercussions.

So backwards that they can’t even do basic arithmetic?

So just an FYI. All the passages of text I highlighted in red are considered “backward” by people living in a modern 20th century post-industrial society. Just because “that’s the way they do things” doesn’t make it any less backward and listing a bunch of ways their justice system is draconian, brutal and arbitrary doesn’t really sell us on their lack of backwardness.
Sorry, but I don’t buy into this whole cultural relativity thing where all traditions and values are considered valid and should be respected and there is no right or wrong. Some traditions and values are objectively wrong and a step backward in the development of any civilization.

Monarchies and other hereditary systems of government are backward. People should have some say in how they are ruled and who rules them.

Cutting people’s heads off is backward. Many would even argue that any form on government mandated death penalty is backward. But beheading particularly so due to it’s brutal and horrific nature.

Draconian punishments like flogging, amputations and beheading that far outweigh the crime are backward. The implication is that this is a society that is so uncivilized, that the only way to prevent people from committing petty crimes is by terrifying them.

“Sorcery” as a crime is pretty fucking backward.

“Efficiency” by itself is not a measure of a civilization. The Nazi’s were very efficient at exterminating Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and the mentally deficient. That doesn’t make them particularly enlightened.
Of course we haven’t even touched on how their culture treats women, homosexuals and other minorities or people who dissent with the status quo. Nor the rampant corruption and incompetence with how they run their country.
So yeah. If you believe in things like justice, equal rights, science instead of mysticism, education over ignorance, then yes, these countries are pretty darn backward.

It works in Arabia. They’re still using a lunar calendar that’s only 354 days long.

In Saudi Arabia, it’s currently the year 1436, which began on our October 24, 2014. 1437 will begin on October 13, 2015.

[QUOTE=dolphinboy]
To your point their justice system is extremely efficient compared to other countries. I remember on one trip I was watching the news on a Monday evening and they mentioned that there had been a horrendous bus accident that was caused by the driver where some kids had died, and incidentally the bus driver wasn’t licensed to drive a bus. The bus driver was arrested on the spot, the trial was held on Wednesday and he was beheaded on Friday. Swift justice by any measure.
[/QUOTE]

And how much time did the bus driver have to try to demonstrate that he did not cause the accident? Maybe, raise a reasonable doubt whether he had caused the accident? What help did he have from legal counsel to defend himself?

And, capital punishment for a traffic accident? Is that the mark of a fair justice system?

[QUOTE=dolphinboy]
One word of advice I got from an ex-pat living there was that if I ever got into an automobile accident I should get out of my car and run as fast as I can away from the scene since as a foreigner it was automatically my fault and would take months to get sorted out by the US Embassy, meanwhile being stuck in a SA jail with very few rights.
[/QUOTE]

So, to compare the two examples you give, when a Saudi is in an accident and is executed within a few days, that’s an efficient justice system, but you would not trust it if it was you that was in the traffic accident. You’d want the protection of a western country/legal system.

I wouldn’t consider a place where the government can arrest and execute you for crimes you weren’t guilty of to be a safe place to walk around in.

I suppose this excuses a lot of the backwardness.

Wasn’t just an accident, several children died.
Which doesn’t alter the fact that the justice system is a complete sham.

the fact that people die in a traffic accident does not mean a crime has been committed. It might, but that is exactly why time is needed to investigate, and why the individual involved needs to have a chance to defend themselves.

SA is very backward by any civilized standard. The fact that they lucked into sitting atop a geological goldmine, enriching themselves by selling the oil to westerners, has prevented this country from being just another third-world totalitarian shithole. When some African despot is condemned for recruiting (by force), training, and deploying children as soldiers, but we Americans look the other way when a “friend” of ours commits other, equally offensive atrocities, justifying it as “different cultures, different customs”, I gotta think we have fully embraced a double-standard. If they were not sitting on the oil, and pretending to support American interests in the region, I have to think our relationship with SA would be much like we have with Iran, perhaps worse.

The stuff SA does can be explained away, but it does not make it right.