I’m not White, not all that old, like a lot of rap, and I don’t like Kanye’s music, never have. He’s always rubbed me the wrong way, College Dropout onwards.
This just showed up in my Youtube feed. Posted 13 years ago.
Thirteen years ago. Dang.
[oops, you already said that]
YouTuber F.D. Signifier did a long, two-part series regarding the rise and fall of Kanye West, with detailed information regarding why he was so important to a large segment of fans, and why so many people still care about what he is doing.
He also analogizes Kanye West’s career arc to professional wrestling:
I’m a 45 year-old white guy, but The College Dropout (though I was in my mid-20s when that was released) is perhaps my favorite album of the past 20 years. Prior to that he was a very accomplished hip-hop producer with obvious ego issues and a giant chip on his shoulder. He was responsible for a big part of Jay Z’s success and emergence into another level of stardom. He made hits for “backpack rappers” who mostly had an underground following. Yet, he had a hard time getting a record contract and almost signed to Rawkus (legendary label for late '90s underground heads but how many mainstream, even rap fans, have ever heard of the label). he was considered “only a producer” with a non-commercial aesthetic and was not really accepted by the commercial rap/pop scene because he did not fit any of the archetypes for a mainstream Black artist. Not a gangsta, fake mafiosa, or shiny suit crack dealer, etc. To quote his breakthrough song “Through The Wire” (which was about his jaw being wired shut after a bad car accident) - “he wasn’t talking 'bout coke and birds it was more like spoken word”
The College Dropout was huge - sold millions. Stuff like “Jesus Walks” (I’m an atheist, btw) was considered a big deal, and not anything that should be a mainstream pop rap hit. His next few albums did as well or better. This is all pre-Kardashians. He was huge 15 years ago, and he didn’t do all the things he did first but he brought it to the mainstream. It makes sense he went into fashion. When he did 808s and Heartbreak, it was considered a big departure (and a letdown to a lot of people). Now it’s considered something everyone copied. He was in Jay Z’s shadow; in some ways he surpassed him. jay Z got Beyonce, Ye got Kim.
I don’t really know what to say about him now, tbh, at least not succinctly. But this was a guy who did very well inspite of haters who had him categorized as a limited behind the scenes guy in music, who did not fit in. That fueled his ego. His narc ego “won” until it didn’t, IMHO. And I’m not saying he’s a genius, and I think his shoes are ugly, but unless you are really one of those old fogeys who refuse to acknowledge any form of rap music as artistry (i’m in my 40s and grew up on hip-hop so this argument is mostly for really old white people at this point. I mean, my 67 year-old mother had Sugar Hill Gang records), his musical accomplishments are undeniable.
Thanks for the detail, most of which means nothing to me. Like your mom (more so) I have very little field of reference to know what all this stuff means. In the quote above, for example, could you explicate what 808s and Heartbreak were a bit? A departure from what? It would be great if you give me an analogy to music (or anything) I’m more conversant with–pop music, or painting, or literature–that would illustrate the scope of Kanye’s gigantic, world-changing departure. Is this like Elvis taking center stage from Pat Boone? Picasso from the Impressionists?
I’m 61. So, “really old and white.”
I’ll acknowledge there probably is “artistry” in rap. But I don’t care for it. I also don’t care for ballet or soccer, although I’m sure people of great talent do both.
But as others point out, this is not the thread to debate rap or hip hop. “What happened” to Kanye West is probably a better and more interesting question if we acknowledge his has (or had) great talent. I’m willing to do so. But I don’t have any answers. Maybe, like so many others, he simply got too close to the dumpster fire we know as Trump. (Was Ye on Trump’s TV show as one of the contestants?)
From his previous work. If you don’t like auto-tune, this is not the album for you. Vocals are mostly (or perhaps all, I forget) auto-tuned instead of rapped. It’s a fairly minimalistic electro-pop hip-hop work, featuring lots of synths and synth drums (the “808”) as opposed to lush (chopped up) samples. It is completely different than the three albums before or since. It’s a polarizing record. If for some reason you want to read a music critic whose opinion I respect’s in-depth take on it (because it’s not worth the detour), here it is:
Honestly, a lot of informative context about Kanye West and his life is in the two videos I posted above. Yes, it’s a lot of video, but this isn’t a subject that has a simple answer. We are talking about a whole host of things that have influenced his life, including mental illness.
Well said.
I enjoy a lot of Kanye’s music, but it’s irrelevant to what I think of his politics. Talented people can also be ignorant assholes. It’s so weird to me when people cannot separate these things.
Another common one is when a good-looking celebrity or politician has odious views, and people suddenly are lining up to say that they are as physically ugly as their statements. As if we’re in a fcking Disney cartoon and morality and looks are perfectly correlated.
Anyway, it’s good that you can say you don’t like rap without being dismissive of it. I don’t like country music, or indeed most of the classic rock that seems to be most popular here at the Dope, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s “not real music” or that people who listen to it are braindead.
The little rap I’ve listened to has been aggressively hostile to women, self-aggrandizing, boasting, obsessed with material possessions (of the sort I’d rush to divest myself of), vulgar in the extreme, and monotonous in its beat–just really horrible, predictable, witless stuff, so forgive me if I feel comfortable dismissing it. I’m always willing to have someone show me something that might change my mind, but so far when someone has, it just reinforces my prejudices against it.
Like a lot of pop music, especially rock? Not all rap is like this. Not even most. But boys singing about all the pussy, money and drugs they do isn’t a rap thing, it’s a young guy thing.
Which has nothing to do with Kanye being an asshole.
Is it an urban legend that fans were so distraught over him no longer a billionaire that they would actually send him money?
I had not heard about this, but there’s this:
It speaks of an earlier effort:
So, I guess true, with some caveats?
I think I could never be again surprised by the depth of people’s stupidity, and yet here we are.
This is not a good attitude to have with anything.
If it were ever true that the majority of rap was like this, it was decades ago at this point.
I’d say that rap is much *more* likely to be about real social issues, injustices and hardship than other genres of music now.
Indeed, one could argue that this is how we birthed a monster with Kanye. Kanye raps about what it was like growing up, and the black experience in very intelligent ways, and was called a genius for years. Sadly, it really got to his head and/or he always had issues, that he managed to keep out of the music.
I’m sorry, but this is simply incorrect. I like lots of rap, but I think his music is mostly boring as hell. As the video by F.D. Signifier above notes, there were lots of people doing the same non-gangster subject matter before him. The main thing that separates him from his predecessors is that he was able to promote himself into being a mainstream star.
They may not cause his toxic opinions, but they certainly contribute to the disinhibitory effect that allows him to share these opinions with the world, particularly social media. The man has no filters, and bipolar illness can certainly contribute to THAT.
A need to be the center of attention can contribute quite a bit as well.