Sorry, that’s the detestable Journal editorial page I meant, not the moony-loony Times.
What happens in the future in Iraq
Finger slipped. Let’s try that again.
What happens in the future in Iraq is obviously a separate debate. You misunderstand me.
Going back to the Watergate analogy, my point is this: the thing about that scandal was that it blew the lid off of all kinds of other things we’d never have known about had the investigation into the break-in and cover-up not taken place.
Should we get a good investigation of this affair, I think I’d be safe in predicting that an amazing amount of stuff about how we were bamboozled into invading Iraq will come out. It will be quite the spectacle.
Well, we were gonna get an investigation. A Senate investigation, the phase two of the one completed, the one very carefully restricted to failures in intelligence sources, very carefully avoiding issues like the use of that intelligence.
Poof! Gone!
Unfortunately, I lost all my political optimism several years ago. I don’t think the vast majority of people in this country will care, particularly as soon as the next attractive white woman goes missing, or the fall TV season starts. And let’s not forget a few well-timed shouts of “9/11” and “Adam and Steve” to the masses.
Well, for myself I had this question answered when I deliberately went over to watch <i>Hannity and His Assmuncher</i>, at which point I was introduced, without any refutation during the time I was watching, to Karl Rove’s lawyer’s defense, which consisted of claiming that some reporter I’d never heard of had introduced the topic of Valerie Plame, rather than Rove promoting the line himself. I suppose this is meant to kill the idea of intent, which, as
Josh Marshall points out in this post is central to any legal defense against the charges that might come up against Rove.
Which is fine. In terms of law, as I’ve pointed out on numerous occasions in the past, I’m sure this Admin will find a way. In terms of morality, which in this case comes down to the absolute bottom of the barrel in this case: are they even willing to defend those who put their lives on the line for this nation? as usual, they come out with a Big Fat Zero.
And, as usual, so does that portion of The Right that hews to The Party Line no matter what, starting with Hannity and whoever believes his fat, putrid ass.
Again, that defense ignores the fact that Rove didn’t just causally mention this just to Cooper. The whole point of all the different journalists is that the leak was systematic: administration officials called at least six different reporters with the story! This “offhand” remark is especially disingenuous given that Gonzalez supposedly conducted an internal investigation to find the leak. Either Rove withheld the information about his contact with Cooper then, or Gonzalez and Bush found out about Rove’s deed and hushed up about it.
Can I get a cite for that? It’s not you; I’ve heard it before but I’ve never seen it backed up.
Here’s one that provides the allegation:
Bush Administration Is Focus of Inquiry
CIA Agent’s Identity Was Leaked to Media
I bow to no one in my distain for Carl Rove’s political tactics. Just the same I think that the Democratic politicians are making a mistake in jumping into this early. Just sit back and let the news media reps do the spadework and clip the coupons if the think pans out.
The U.S. Office of Independent Counsel was abolished/expired in 2001. The attorney general is a presidential appointee. Republicans control both houses of Congress. So who’s going to do anything about this? Who has both the power and the inclination to investigate/prosecute Karl Rove, or any of the Bush team?
If this is a whoosh, I apologize, but this is … not a good idea. First, the matter is already two years old. I would think it evident that waiting has already been done.
Secondly, how many times do you need to be introduced to the idea that you cannot take a political punch to the gut, do nothing in response, and expect to keep political power? If the matter is left up to the press, Rove’s status as a “heroic whistleblower” will become the truth - idiots in the press are already biting on this one. When the entire method of the press is “he said/she said” reporting, you have to say something!
Please, for the love of America - Democrats: Stop Bending Over and Grabbing Your Ankles! Stop blanching at attacks. Be forceful in advancing the truth. People do not want to follow a weakling. They do not rally around a flag-carrier who is cowering behind the wall.
I disagree. Gotta keep the heat on for as long as we can, as hot as we can. If there’s a sense that interest in the topic is cooling, the Pubbie spin machine wins because they are paid to yack about this stuff endlessly, and will eventually overwhelm the TV idjits with sheer repetition.
Patrick Fitzgerald is a Special Prosecutor and was apponted by Deputy Atty General Comey after Ashcroft recused himself from the case, so it’s clearly in the DOJ’s hands.
In terms of a senate investigation type thing, you’re probably right about your concerns, but in terms of whether someone broke the law and is indictable, I don’t think there’s anything Congress can wield to make it go away. If it is Rove that gets indicted I suppose it’s possible that ultimately the President can say “we’re at war, and Mr. Rove is essential to the war effort and therefore I pardon him” or some such thing, but then he can kiss the rest of his presidency goodbye. I don’t know enough about presidential pardons to know if Bush could do that.
I agree with this to a certain extent. There could be embarassment down the road. But the thing is, The WH clearly lied about it’s involvement in getting the Wilson/Plame story out there whether or not they broke any laws. The Dems and the press can not give them a pass on this, nor should the public tolerate it. Even if no one is indicted and Rove keeps his job, which I wouldn’t rule out, this whole sorry episode needs to be on the record.
If this was a Democratic administration that was caught doing dirty tricks like this, you can bet the ranch that the Republicans would be milking that cow dry. We’re finding out that nice guys finish last in politics. You need to make political hay when the sun shines. The Dems need to hammer on this hard and often.
I certainly wish we could trust them to do so, but those days are long past. The Beltway media has gone beyond frivolous and superficial into complete supineness in recent years (largely IMHO as a result of corporatization, but that’s another thread). GE, Disney, and Murdoch can only be expected to pursue it if it has ratings in it.
But maybe that’s happening. As Jon Stewart commented (7/12 Daily Show) over clips of McClellan getting pressed on the matter: (low commercial voiceover tone) “We’ve secretly replaced the White House press corps with real reporters. Let’s see who notices the difference”.
What Hentor said. Part of the reason the Democrats have been out of the race for so long is that they still (largely) treat the political process as a gentleman’s sport, like a fencing expedition. They’ve just begun to clue in that the Republicans have abandoned all pretense of nicety and are now turning American politics into a drawn-out brass-knuckles duel, with thugs who would gladly shoot them in daylight if given half a chance (who was it who said his fondest dream was to drown the Democratic Party in the bathtub?). Sitting back meekly and waiting for things to work out doesn’t work; it’s long past time to roll up the sleeves and start fighting back.
And waiting for the corporate-owned conservative mainstream media to do the footwork for this is like waiting for OJ Simpson to catch Nicole’s real killer. :dubious:
One of the many things that burns me about this whole thing is that National Security has been used for the erosion of civil liberties ever since 9/11. And anyone who disagrees with the Bush agenda is considered Unpatriotic.
After looking at what has come to light, I can’t think of anyone more insecure or unpatriotic than Karl Rove. This is our government. This is how we look to the rest of the world.
Man, I want to take a shower…
Ya can split hairs, parseaway, and argue about legality of What Rove did, but if you make a logical diagram of this whole affair, well, all roads lead to condemnation
Begin here:
The President, responding to accusations that someone in his administration leaked the Identity of Wilson’s wife, declared that he wanted to get to the bottom of the affair, and stood firm that the leak did not come from his administration.
- Yes or No: Did the President ask his staff if they leaked?
…If no, then his stated desire to get to the bottom was bull-hockey, and he lied to us. Why would he do such a thing?
…If he did ask, then…
2.Did any of his staff admit to the leak?
…If no, then at least one of them lied to his President, and should be fired. Publicly. Horsewhipping might b a nice fillip. The President at least can claim plausible deniability when he stood by his staff.
…If yes, then The President’s protestations that the administration was clean was a calculated lie to the public. And we know how much people hate it when their President lies. Well, Democratic Presidents, at least
So there you have it; either Rove lied to the President (for which he should be burnt), or the President lied to the public (for which he should be called on it), or the President is an incompetent boob with no authority over his staff (something of no llittle importance to the populace, I would think). Or all three.
As much as some would like to pin this as a smear campaign by the Democrats and Joe Wilson, or claim that the sole issue here is the legality of mentioning Plame’s name. That’s small potatos now, AFAIAC. Pretty simple math, when you come right down to it.
This is not the first time “someone” in the administration compromised security either. There was the Isaraeli incident, and the “burning” of an agent/informant, etc.
The reporters, Democrats, and moderates of both parties need to get on this and stay on it. While the investigators investigate the legal aspects, others need to stay on the ethics aspects and keep it up in front. Otherwise, it gets buried and forgotten.