I hear an ambassadorship just opened up that she could be promoted to.
She could join Noem at the Shield of Americas office.
I’m tired of this sort of artificial distinction.
There have been numerous recent instances where pundits declared that high-profile MDs (El-Sayed running for the Senate in Michigan for example) who haven’t been out in practice can’t be called doctors. NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya never finished a residency or practiced medicine, but by any reasonable standard is a doctor.
Sorry, but if you graduate from med school you are a physician.
Likewise, get through law school and you’re a lawyer.
*noting that someone can get through med or law school, attain a degree and be an unregenerate sleazebag, but still have a professional title.
Not quite. A medical school graduate has been awarded the title “Doctor of Medicine” and can use the professional title “doctor”, which is usually what we mean when we say somebody “is a doctor”. But they are not a practicing physician if they haven’t completed residency training and passed licensing exams to receive their license to practice.
By contrast, law schools don’t confer on graduates the title “Lawyer”, so graduating from law school doesn’t automatically entitle the graduate to that designation. “Lawyer” is more a term of professional practice.
In most states you’re not legally allowed to call yourself a “lawyer” or “attorney”, or get paid for doing any lawyer-type work, until you’re licensed to practice law in that state. Which requires passing the state bar exam.
TL;DR: a brand-new med school graduate legitimately “is a doctor”, although not one licensed to practice medicine. But that doesn’t mean that a brand-new law school graduate (or even a decades-old one who never passed a bar exam) “is a lawyer”.
Sorry, but no. A lawyer is an officer of the court, someone who is entitled argue on another person’s behalf before a judge. If the government doesn’t recognize you as a lawyer, you’re not a lawyer.
Passing the bar may be a formality, but in the legal world, formalities are essential.
Except that I did not use the term “practicing physician” (note that getting a medical license does not make you a practicing physician. You’ve got to, um, actually practice medicine).
A physician is in fact someone who has graduated from medical school and been awarded an M.D. degree. “Doctor” is a term applied not only to physicians and those with doctorates in non-medical fields, but in a loose/deceptive sense to people in pseudo-medical professions like naturopathy.
“Lawyer” is widely considered an appropriate term for a law school graduate/J.D.
Contempt for Zacharia doesn’t change that.
If practice experience is considered mandatory to be considered a lawyer or medical doctor, then those titles would have to be stripped from many lawyers and physicians in academic or advisory roles.
Also: do retired lawyers and physicians revert to being “law school graduates” and “medical school graduates”, simply because they’re no longer practicing? Don’t be silly.
I don’t think practice is required, but passing the bar is. IMO. Kim Kardashian is not a lawyer. And I think that position would get broad support.
Y’all argue semantics all y’all want
Either way, Zacharia claims to be a lawyer in the same sense that Trump is a Wharton graduate. People think MBA when they hear Wharton, so he uses the association on a technicality. Normal, non-sociopathic people would say they graduated from UPenn
And her defense, as far as it goes, is she was licensed to practice law in China. By actual communists. That’s one heck of a defense. And the lack of vetting by the White House is totally unsurprising.
Kardashian neither graduated law school nor passed the bar.
She intended to take (and pass) the bar by “reading the law” with a practicing attorney without going to law school. California is, to my knowledge, the one state that allows one to take the bar without attaining a degree from an accredited law school. She’s not relevant to the distinction as she was never qualified in any way to be a lawyer.
Yes, she did an apprenticeship that the California bar considers equivalent to a JD, in that both allow you to sit for the exam. We agree, then, that the exam confers the legitimacy of the title?
Eta: 5 states offer equivalency options according to Google.
If you pass, sure.
If you don’t, nope.
The state of California does not consider them equivalent. They just have different standards on who can take the bar and qualify as a licensed attorney. That’s not the same thing. If it were equivalent, she could just take the bar in an easier state (the California bar exam is notoriously difficult, in part because one does not have to graduate law school to take it).
So, she does not have the equivalent of a law degree nor did she pass the bar. That’s not a comparable situation at all.
ETA: Ok, on review, there are 4 states that allow taking the bar without a law degree and 2 others that allow one to take it with a combination of law school and apprenticeship under an experienced lawyer. Either way, without a degree and without passing the bar, there’s no grounds whatsoever to call oneself a lawyer. Zacharia claimed to have one of those qualifications, so it’s not an equivalent situation.
Well the word has no meaning I guess. I mean, I can go to law school and fail the bar exam repeatedly but call myself a lawyer? But if I find another way to become eligible to sit for the exam and also fail it repeatedly I can’t call myself a lawyer? But actually the I can just read the wiki page on Law and call myself a lawyer because it isn’t a title that anyone polices?
My point being, someone who can’t pass the bar but calls themselves a lawyer is a joke and nobody would take them seriously with that title.
I didn’t say that.
My own take is that just graduating law school isn’t enough, but I was nitpicking a different point, which was that Kardashian didn’t even do that much.
But I can at least comprehend the viewpoint that a law degree is enough and admit that there is at least a valid, if unconvincing, argument there, which is not the case with Kardashian.
Likewise, not a few JDs like to say a Juris Doctor lets them be addressed as “Doctor”. That is also an uncompelling argument.
And Kardashian fans would probably argue otherwise. The whole thing is silly but imo the bar is a pretty consistent line.
No, I didn’t say that the use of either term depends on active practice status. (Previously practicing lawyers and doctors remain qualified to practice independent of employment status.)
What I said is that “Doctor” is a professional title that’s conferred upon graduation from medical school, while “lawyer” is a professional category, not a title, whose professional use is legally conditioned on practice-qualification status, not merely on holding a JD degree. (There are plenty of qualified lawyers who never got a JD degree, for that matter, though most states do require it.)
There’s nothing silly about that, and it’s really not that hard to understand. Katie Zacharia has never been licensed to practice law, therefore she is not a lawyer, because that’s a professional category based on practice qualification. Abdul El-Sayed, for example, holds a medical degree, therefore he is a doctor, because that’s a professional title (although not a qualified or practicing doctor, because that’s also a professional category).
I think you are a lawyer when you’re licensed to practice law. This woman says she was a corporate lawyer, and she has said it many times. That certainly implies that she was employed representing corporations or at least working around issues involving corporations. I think she also said that she was general counsel for a republican group of some sort, also implying that she was licensed.
That’s like me claiming to be a “government agent” because I’m an IT guy for a state government agency (which I wouldn’t do, ugh), or the guy on this board who claims to be a “fed” because he worked at the IRS.
From what I understand of her roles here, she would technically be a “legal advisor” rather than a lawyer, in that she is qualified (presumably) to opine and advise on the law but not to actively practice law herself.
My oldest child was going to go to medical school, but for reasons decided not to. The other two hold DPT (doctor of physical therapy) and JD degrees. The last time we went bowling as a family, they listed the eldest as “Not A Doctor” on the electronic scorer.
Or she was practicing law illegally if she was actually general counsel for whatever group she claims. General counsel is a generally recognized job title for the principal legal representation for a company or body, not a descriptor for typical employee job functions like “washer of floors” or “filer of paperwork”
Of course, as with her claims of practicing in China, the more likely situation is she’s just a lying liar who lied on her resume, which nobody bothered to check before hiring her. Par for the course for the White House these days and, aside from her appearance, the actual primary qualification they require for the role.