[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iolanthe *
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*You[i/] write it up, I’ll get the signatures. Mine will be first.
Review, then post. Review, then post.
I forgot to mention this earlier. Not only is Chanukkah usually a couple weeks earlier than Christmas, but it’s a very minor holiday anyway. Maybe if there was an equally important Jewish holiday at the same time as Christmas, Jews wouldn’t feel as left out, but Chanukkah is one of the two minor holidays. (The other one is Purim. How many non-Jews out there have even heard of Purim?) So it feels disingenuous when well-meaning Christians wish us a happy Chanukkah. Why didn’t you wish us a pleasant Passover or a good fast on Yom Kippur? A big deal is made of Chanukkah for the sole reason that it happens to fall near Christmas.
I’m kind of drifting from the topic, but I guess I’m kind of infuriated that Christmas has so drastically affected my own religion. I don’t particularly care for this overcommercialization and pretty much hate the whole “holiday season”. I find it admirable that the Kansas City schools (remember them?) have attempted to keep the hype out of the classroom.
KYLA says:
I doubt it. As others have already said, Christmas isn’t “the big holiday” in Christianity anyway, and inarguably is not celebrated in a primarily-religious manner by most Americans – including lots of Christians. But most Americans DO celebrate it, in one way or the other, because most Americans are socially and historically Christian. (Before you get the knives out, note that I did not say ALL, or that all SHOULD be – I’m just talking about straight percentages.) So you have a holiday that most Americans celebrate, religiously or secularly, but that most Jewish-Americans do not. THAT, IMO, is why Jews feel “left out” – because, not to put too fine a point on it, they are – and by choice. It is simply not a Jewish holiday, and to refrain from celebrating when it seems like every one around you is whooping it up . . . lots of people would feel left out. I’m sure as well that this is the reason for the increased emphasis on Hanukkah – because it functions as the “Jewish alternative” to Christmas.
Frankly, this irritates me a tad. Just because YOU don’t consider Hannukah to be a particularly important holiday, you suspect Chistians who wish you well on that occasion of disengenuousness? If the holiday appears to Christians be important to Jews, it is because of the apparent increased importance attached to it by Jews. It is presented as the Jewish holiday closest to Christmas (and most akin to Christmas in terms of traditions – ie, feasting and gift giving upon a happy occasion), and since Christians exchange holiday greetings anyway and you appear to be celebrating your holiday as I gear up to celebrate mine . . . why wouldn’t I wish you Happy Hannukah?
I’m “kind of infuriated” that some people apparently second-guess heart-felt good wishes, as if they are presented with ulterior motives of religious devisiveness or religious smugness. My celebration of my holiday and my observance of my religion has nothing to do with how you do or do not celebrate your holidays and observe your religion. Nothing. Now, the occasion might prompt me to offer you good wishes – wishes you are of course free to reject as hostile or insincere, just because you happen to be Jew and I happen to be a Christian. If you allow Christmas to negatively affect your own religion, that’s your problem, not mine.
:: slightly taken aback ::
Jodi, I certainly didn’t mean to offend you. I’m simply agreeing with the OP, and giving my reasons why I personally think that the Kansas City schools are doing the right thing. I notice that you didn’t even mention the OP’s topic - what is your take on it?
Maybe people need to be just a bit less sensitive and a bit more tolerant. If people have time to piss and moan about an unimportant topic I think things are going fairly well for all of us.
Marc
Is it really so minor? In ‘The Diary of Anne Frank’ they made a rather big deal about it, and that was told from a Jewish perspective.
I agree in seeing nothing disingenuous about Christians wishing Jews a happy Chanukkah. Even if it isn’t one of the more important Jewish holidays it is one that we are frequently reminded of, and it does come at a time of the year when holiday greetings are exchanged frequently. I don’t see how someone could see something wrong with it - if a non-Christian thought to give me their best wishes for a minor Christian holiday, I would be impressed that they were knowledgeable about a religion other than their own and pleased that they thought to share good will - even though I’m not religious.
Sorry scratch, but that whoosing sound you’re hearing is the point going over your head. I don’t hate chistmas because it is a Christian holiday, I hate it for the way it is forced down my throat. You don’t hate Chanukkah, because you don’t see it on TV for a month, you don’t hear the music when you go shopping and you don’t get assaulted by its images. I think that your view of Chanukkah would change if 98% of the people you came into contact just assumed that you must celebrate it.
Isn’t this fun. We’re debating Santa Claus.
Let me be the first to say that I think the Easter Bunny is the anti-Christ! Did you see what that vicious rabbit did in the documentary about the Holy Grail? It is absolutely infuriating that nobody even seemed to care.
Maybe the “point” wouldn’t go whooshing over my head if you had explained it like that in the first place.
I’m not a mind-reader, you know…
Kyla -
Chanukka minor? The what would you call Lag Ba’omer, Tu Bishvat or Tu B’Av? I’d classify Chanukka as an intermediate holiday - less important than Passover or the High Holidays in a religious sense, but very popular. Plus, not only does it have the best songs, it also has some of the best food (Jelly donuts!).
KYLA, you didn’t offend me, except to the extent that your post appeared to question the sincerity of Christians who might wish you a happy Hannukah (the word you used was “disengenuous”). Why wouldn’t you just assume that people who wish you a Happy Hannukah really want you to have a Happy Hannukah, and not look for ulterior motives?
Here’s my take: I think the idea of a “slippery slope” of Christmas imagery is ridiculous. I think schools and school teachers (and students) can tell the difference between Santa and a Nativity scene. The question, in my mind, is not whether Santa leads to more rampant Christian celebration, but whether Santa is in itself (himself) objectionable. Assuming that a teacher decorated his or her class for the holidays (meaning, Hannukah, Christmas, and Kwanzaa), I would not object to putting up a Santa as a symbol of Christmas (along with symbols of Hannukah and Kwanzaa). I see nothing incompatible with both helping the students to celebrate or anticipate the holidays (in a low-key way), and teaching them about religious and cultural diversity. I think there is a difference between acknowledging that different people believe and celebrate different things, and attempting to pretend that nobody believes or celebrates anything. I think what’s called for is a greater degree of tolerance, and the exercise of some common sense.
ADAM YAX says:
THIS is the sort of thinking that bugs me. Look, you live in a country that overwhelmingly celebrates Christmas, be it religiously or secularly. YOU do not – and bully for you. But we do – and be we I mean the vast majority of your fellow citizens. But you think that having Christmas shows on T.V. or music in the malls or whatever constitutes an “assault” upon you – as if the rest of us are somehow required to moderate our celebration of the holidays just because YOU don’t celebrate it. Baloney. I think it is appropriate to acknowledge that other religion and other religious holidays exist, and if Jewish people want to place more emphasis on Hannukah in an attempt to educate Christians or to offer their children an alternative to Christmas, I say more power to them. But I do NOT believe that I am required to celebrate MY holiday differently for YOUR sake. To me, it’s like having a neighbor who won’t go to my party for religious reasons, but who then expects me to turn the music down just because he’s not there.
If you want to deplore the commercialism of Christmas, go right ahead – I’m right behind you. It takes away from the spirit of the season, namely the sharing of “peace and goodwill among men,” whether those sentiments be religously or secularly motivated. But to assign crass commercialism or, worse, genuine celebrations of the season with the motive of “cramming Christmas down your throat” is ridiculous.
I can well understand that Jews must get sick of hearing about Christmas, but I don’t see much to be done about it except accept it as a fact of this society and suffer through it, or lock yourself in your house for a month. In any event, I can sympathize with the emotion. What I canNOT sympathize with is going beyond that and assigning nefarious motives to people who do celebrate Christmas. That’s what bugs me about what’s been said in this thread.
Please show me where I said that I wanted your celebration moderated. I didn’t. I object to its omnipresence. I object to the fact that 98% of people assume that I must celebrate it (this I did say).
Once again, show me where I indicated “nefarious motives”.
This, methinks, is the crux of the debate.
If Santa is acceptable as a “symbol of Christmas,” how can other Christians say that he is not a Christian Symbol?
The Tim: Santa isn’t a religious symbol.
kyla: Santa Claus is about as religious as fried spam…
danielinthewolvesden: Santa… [is] part of the secular, non-religous Chistmas.
Now, those quotes are all taken out of context; some of those posters agree with me (that Santa is a religious symbol) and some don’t, but they all support the idea that we, as a society, take it for granted that Santa is not a religious symbol. Don’t they?
If that is the case, Jodi, doesn’t it follow that he does not belong in a public school unless accompanied by symbols of all other religions[sup]*[/sup]?
[sub]* BTW, I think the idea of teaching kids about every religion under the sun is pretty nutty, also. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on educational materials about Wiccans, thank you very much (no offense to the Wiccan Lobby). I want my kids to be taught about religion; I send them to religious school.
ADAM YAX says:
Please explain to me how to curtail its “omnipresence” without moderating it. The one implies the other.
I believe the exact phrase you used was “forced down [your] throat.” No one if “forcing it down your throat;” that’s the point.
SDIMBERT says:
We’ve already been through this, as you’ll see if you review the links posted by NEBULI. But the short answer (IMO) is that Santa is no more a Christian symbol than the Easter Bunny. Santa is associated with Christmas, as the Easter Bunny is associated with Easter, but he belongs to the secular celebration of it, not the religious – just as the Easter Bunny belongs to the secular celebration of Easter, not the religious.
??? You lost me. If we agree that Santa is NOT a religious figure, then why would he need to be accompanied by symbols of other religions?
I do not think that, by teaching about holidays, schools have to delve into the minutia of religious thought. I made a dreidel when I was in grade school and, fortunately for me, nobody imagined it was a plot to convert me to Judaism. Instead, I was being taught about traditions surrounding a Jewish holiday – traditions other than my own, and a holiday I knew nothing about until then. I refuse to believe that I (or my education) would have been better off by ignoring not just the traditions and holidays of my culture, but of all cultures. Nor do I think that including in education the major traditions and holidays celebrated in our society means that we must try to encompass every tradition or holiday ever celebrated anywhere. Again, the focus is (or should be) primarily on the holiday, not necessarily the religion, so far as the schools are concerned. Like I said, I think the key is to use some common sense.
Sdimbert, are you denying that Santa is a symbol of Christmas?
And if he is - are you denying that Christmas is a Christian Holiday?
The first question is rhetorical; I don’t think we can argue about this. Now, as to the second, I think I can make a strong case to the former. All Christian communities worldwide celebrate Christmas; no non-Christian ones do. Is that enough to prove cause-and-effect? What about that whole “Birth of Christ” thing?
Myself, I have no problem with Christmas. It seems like a nice holiday. The thing is, it’s not my holiday. It’s like your birthday - big day for you, just another day for everyone else.
<Wiccan Lobby injudiciously prods the Yule fires> 
Fair enough–I’d prefer not to have my tax dollars spent to expose my (hypothetical) kids to symbols of Christianity or Judaism. (Although I see no problem with discussions of various religions in the context of history or sociological courses.) Besides, if they put up wreaths and trees, they’ve already got Wiccan symbols. Remember, though, that even if we completely secularize the classroom, kids are still getting out of school on particular dates that correspond with holy days of various religions. I don’t see any way to eliminate that connection without taking away the kids’ breaks from school (which I don’t want to see happen).
On the whole, I think Santa ought to be kept out of the schools–more because I always found his omnipresence around the holidays annoying than for any religious or Constitutional reason. I can’t see how anyone could deny that he is a religious figure, though, and as such does not belong among classroom decorations.
Jodi:
You’re right. I confused myself. 
Suffice it to say that I believe Santa to be as religious a symbol as any other associated with Christmas. I did not mean for this thread to be a debate concerning the merits of teaching children about various religions. That’s another debate.
In my OP, I asked:
**
I still have not seen an argument I can understand that shows how Santa is anything except a religious symbol.
Alessan, you were victimized by my confusing post as well. Please read the above… it should clear things up.
Yes, I did say that I objected to the omnipresence of Christmas, because I do. Again, where did I say that I wanted it curtailed? Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I did also say that Christmas is forced down my throat, simply because there is no option that allows me to avoid it. I still want to know where I am implying anything “nefarious”.
It seems to me Jodi, that you want your have your cake and eat it too. You want Santa to not be considered a religious icon, even though the image is linked to Christmas. You want to be able to celebrate Christmas, and you want me to stop saying that I don’t like Christmas. You’ve put a spin on what I have said and taken it out of context. I have never said anywhere that Christians need to curtail christmas, I’ve asked you to show me where I have said it, and you cannot. The day that I stop expressing my personal beliefs is the same day that christmas is no longer omnipresent.
Sdimbert, you had said-
Perhaps because Santa has nothing to do with any Christian religious doctrine, worship or ritual?
But to clarify a point I’m unsure of…when you say “Christian symbol” do you mean- (A)a symbol of some aspect or theme of the Christian religion, or (B)a symbol used in cultures which adhere to the Christian religion, or whose ancestors adhered to the Christian religion? Or do you believe there is no real difference in meaning between the two? It is my contention that symbols which fall under only the second definition are not religious symbols.
P.S.- I just saw your post, Alessan, before submitting this. Have you read last year’s threads, because some of your points are addressed there? I don’t know of anybody who is denying that Christmas is a Christian religious holiday, but the point that many of us are trying to make is that many aspects of the holiday are not religious, and therefore, celebration of those parts, and only those parts, are not impositions of the majority’s religion on others- the question of whether it is fair for the majority to impose cultural practices on unwilling minorities is certainly a valid, and related, point. But it should be addressed on its own merits, not by inaccurate characterizations of the situation [and I apologize for how dogmatic this sounds- I really don’t mean it to read quite as it does, but I’m sort of at a loss for words after a long day, and I hope everybody realizes I just mean this in a very IMHO way]