Keep Santa Out of School!!!

Great Debates
41

For a second there I had to reread the OP. Maybe you guys need a new post.
Should Santa be allowed in schools? I liken this to my stand on school uniforms and numerous other “expressions” that students “have a right to.” This is why I hate public education, everyone assumes the government not only needs to be fair, but needs to address all these stupid issues.

Children go to school to learn what we would hope are objective, non-biased facts. I find this to be true only in math class, which many students don’t like anyway.

If that cannot be met, then it should be geared toward american education, since this is, in fact, america, and it is the US government that foots the bill (and quit it about “your” tax dollars—they’re the government’s once they leave your paycheck). The faculty should not hinder AFTER school activities of any sort, including studies of any other topic, but likewise, should not support one or the other. School is not an open forum for everything, its purpose is to educate and encourage intellectual exploration. Tommy Hilfiger (sp?) and a misunderstanding of the Constitution has led us into a sorry state, but it is not hopeless.

Why we attack schools and not malls (who have a cheery Santa for kids to sit on his lap) is obvious: schools are mandated…mall visits are not. Though I imagine there will soon be posts about “Keep Santa off my TV” (as if you payed for the station’s operation) and “Keep Santa out of my mall” (as if you had the deed and determined what would be appropriate).

Will the religious right only be satisfied when church and state are no longer seperate? And which church would it be? And and and

This is why I say: privatize schools, or return taxes to parents who choose to have their child in a private institution. You choose where your child goes, and whether or not Santa is allowed there.

Because, let’s face it, all holidays are truly pagan and we should all kill ourselves before its too late and we become one of them…godjehovayawehmarduk knows we can’t think for ourselves on the topic.

There is only one God, he is the Sun God
RA
RA
RA

42

BALANCE says:

So is everything that is associated with Christmas automatically religous? What about Yule logs and Christmas trees and Christmas wreaths? Are those religious, just because they are associated with Christmas? In truth, though originally pagan symbols, they are about as religous as Santa – which, IMO, is not very. They are undeniably part of the Christmas celebration, however, and it in turn is a Christian holiday. That does not make them Christian symbols, however, anymore than a turkey becomes a cranberry just because they’re both part of Thanksgiving dinner.

My problem with Santa in school (as I’ve said before) is not that he is a religious symbol because, to my mind, he is not. My problem (insofar as little kids are concerned) is that I think it’s inappropriate to focus on a tradition that will result in goodies for some kids but not for all. That strikes me as thoughtless: “Let’s color Santa because he will bring presents to all the good little children – oh, except for you, Cindy Lou Whostein.” Same reason I don’t think a lot of emphasis should be put on the Easter Bunny. But in neither case do I think the symbol should be verboten because it is religous; it’s not.

SDIMBERT:

I consider it to be as religious a symbol as a lot of others, including wreaths and “Walkin’ In A Winter Wonderland.” I do not consider it as religous as, say, a creche, because it manifestly is not. In my mind, this is where common sense comes in to the equation again. Does the symbol promote religious belief? Well, what religious belief would you say Santa promotes? So far as I know, the only “belief” he promotes is that if you’re good, you’ll get loot, and if you’re bad, you won’t. This I object to in young classes (as noted above), because there are some kids who will never get loot from Santa, no matter how good they are. But that’s not a religious problem; it’s a problem inherent in a tradition and a holiday that your kids might celebrate and my kids might not.

ADAM YAX:

Hmmm. I just said:

Substitute “curtailing” for “moderating” in this quote and answer the question, please. I’m not trying to get in a fight with you, but I don’t understand your position: You object to Christmas being omnipresent and being “forced down your throat,” but you do not advocate making it less omnipresent? So, what, you’re just complaining?

The point, since you missed it, is that just because something is omnipresent or unavoidable doesn’t mean that anyone is trying to force it down your throat. I could travel to India and encounter a culture where I can’t turn around without seeing a woman wearing a sari; that doesn’t mean Indians are forcing saris down my throat. The implication of nefarious intent is in the phrase “forcing it down my throat.” Since you obviously did not mean it that way, however, I apologize for misconstruing your words. But I do then wonder what point you were trying to make.

My point is that Santa does not become a religious icon just because he is linked to Christmas. This is not something I want you to believe; it is simply what I believe.

Actually, I don’t care whether you like Christmas or not, nor do I care whether you say you like it or not.

Well, until your last post, I don’t think that I did. When you accuse society as a whole of “forcing” the holiday “down your throat,” I think it’s reasonable for me as a reader to assume you object to it and would like to see it changed.

I have now pointed out no less than three times why I think such a position was implicit in what you said.

By all means, continue to express your personal beliefs, and I will continue to express mine.

43

Jodi, I’m just stating my personal thoughts about christmas. I think that it is too much, and that it make December uncomfortable for many people who aren’t Christian. I didn’t say anything about changing it, because I know that it is not going to change anytime in the foreseeable future. However, if all goes according to plan, and I become Emperor you can rest assured that things are going to change around here.

44

ADAM YAX says:

I realize that it must irritate some non-Christians to hear Jingle Bells blared from every speaker in the mall for six weeks straight. Heck, it irritates me and I’m Christian. But what your post appeared to be saying was that Christmas hype somehow intentionally makes non-Christians uncomfortable. That’s what I took exception to. Christians do not celebrate Christmas to aggravate Jews. Stores do not hype Christmas to piss off their non-Christian customers but to make money from the overwhelming majority of their other customers, who do celebrate Christmas.

So let me ask you this: What do you think can be done (if anything) to make Christmas less “uncomfortable” for those who do not celebrate it? My inclination – which is to include people – probably wouldn’t work, since my impression is that many (most?) Jews do not really want to be included anyway, for religious reasons. So what do you (and other non-Christians) suggest?

45

Of course Saint Nick is a religious figure. He’s even the patron saint of thieves.

(and if I ever cat-burgle that’ll be my excuse – I was just delivering presents! Now put down the gun and get me out of this chimney…)

46

St. Nicholas is a minor Catholic saint, believed to have been a bishop in Turkey in the 4th century AD, but also possibly fictional. St. Nicholas has a (largely uncelebrated) feast day of December 6th. St. Nicholas is generally portrayed in long robes and wearing the hat of a bishop. St. Nicholas has no sleigh, no reindeer, no red-and-white suit, no ho-ho-ho.

The only things St. Nicholas and Santa Claus have in common are the tradition of gift-giving (one legend of St. Nick has him anonymously leaving gifts in the home of a needy family) and an undisputed nomative link (Santa Claus comes from the Dutch Sinter Klaas comes from St. Nicholas). That’s it. Under what theory would the modern-day reindeer-driving, chimney-sliding, cookies-and-milk-consuming Santa be considered a religious figure?

47

So if it was the arch-angel Michael driving the sleigh…

48

If my aunt had balls . . . .

49

As a non-Jew, Kyla, I have a deep respect for any religion that, at least on occasion, obliges you to get drunk.

BTW, people here are assuming that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. To my knowledge, it is not, at least in the traditional definition of a religious holiday. For example, it is not on the Catholic calendar. Sure, Catholics have created a mass for it with particular readings, but they have done the same for the fourth of July.
Sua

50

Keep the Fourth of July out of our schools!

Er, sorry.

51

I think I have a Constitutional right to celebrate the Fourth of July in public school. It’s in the Constitution! (well, Declaration of Independence, but close enough.)

Sua

52

Actually, Sdimbert, my freind- I, personally, WOULD like you (and ALL my Jewish brethren) to appreciate the Season- with all it’s attendant secular trappings- santa, holly, yule logs, decorated trees, elves, rudolph, frosty, jingles, etc. (BUT NOT a creche scene!) AFAIK, there is nothing that prevents a Jew from celebrating a secular holiday. In fact, there is a verse somewhere in the OT, which says it is even Ok to go along with the OUTWARD trappings of other religous celebrations.

During that time of year, however, most of us also have a religous Holiday- not a biggie in terms of holiness, but one of the most fun. And I do hope that YOUR religous Holiday is ALSO happy for you, as well as mine for me, as we both celebrate the Secular one about that time. Heck- you are lucky- you get TWO holidays! :smiley:

Personally, I would that they would change the “official” name of the holiday to “Yule”- so that the secular trapping would not interfer with the holiness of that time for all of us.

53

Ew!! You’d better be talking gowns and cumberbands!

Really, how far down the list does a venerated member of the Catholic Church have to be, whatever silly trappings are attached, before they cease being religious?

Seraphim? Cherubim? Jesus? St. Mary? St. Joseph?

St. Luke? St. Christopher? St. Francis?

But not St. Nick. Somehow he doesn’t make the cut.

So, I’m wondering if there is a complete list somewhere with a red line such that any Saint below the line are just secular dudes.

Hmmm, if the Pope mobile were pulled by reindeer. Ratzinger the red nosed cardinal…

I’ve got it! We’ll let Moses drive the sleigh. He looks enough like old St. Nick. I’m sure the Jews will hop right on board that idea! :smiley:

54

I’m going to take one more shot at this, then let the sillies take over (4th of July out of schools… FUNEE!!).

I asked how one could assert that Santa is not a religious figure. The only answers I have found (maybe I missed one?) in this thread are from people who say that he isn’t because, well… because he just isn’t, that’s why!

Look. I’m a Jew. There are no symbols in my life that used to be religious and aren’t anymore. My religion doesn’t work that way. There are many kinds of holidays on the calendar and some are not really religious. For example, most observant Jews celebrate the anniversary of Israel’s Independence. But even that day has some religious practice associated with it.

I just don’t grok what you all mean when you speak of “secular Christmas” vs “religious Christmas.”

55

sdimbert: I just don’t grok what you all mean when you speak of “secular Christmas” vs “religious Christmas.”

Well, sdim, do you understand what is meant by distinguishing between a “secular Thanksgiving” and a “religious Thanksgiving”? Or a “secular St. Patrick’s Day” and a “religious St. Patrick’s Day”? Saints’ days and days of national thanksgiving used to be extremely important religious observances (and still are in some religions). But for most people in the US, those holidays are now marked only (or chiefly) by non-religious customs such as wearing green, standing in line at airports and train stations, drinking too much beer, or eating too much turkey. But they still have a national presence as holidays: i.e., occasions for certain traditional celebrations, sometimes including time off from school or work.

Actually, I can tell you exactly what a “secular Christmas” is, in the tradition of my immediate family, at least (Jewish father, Christian mother).

-Politely phrased letters of request to Santa (until, in my case, the year I snuck out of bed one Christmas Eve and found Mom painting a doll crib. I knew she was not a North Pole elf and the credibility of the whole system was dealt a staggering blow).

-Tree (measured and cut to size by Dad with a lofty disregard for Mom’s views on not getting evergreen sap on the carpet). Six-pointed star on top (not meant to be a mogen David or a star of Bethlehem, as far as I know, it was just a star) with blue light bulbs. Ornaments, candy canes, and tinsel.

-Shopping (preceded by huddles of n-1 of the n family members to agree on who would get what).

-Wrapping (punctuated by frenzied shrieks of unwelcome when a family member happened to open the door just as a present for him or her was being taken out of the bag).

-Watching “The Grinch who Stole Christmas” and “Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer” on television; sometimes also “A Charlie Brown Christmas.”

-Mechanical music box in the form of a sphere that played “O Tannenbaum” when you pulled the string.

-No angels, no creches, no church. Occasional games of dreidel if overlap with Hanukkah, esp. if cousins or Jewish friends visited.

-Unwrapping presents on Christmas morning. Immediate immersion in new books. Reluctant emergence to write thank you letters to relatives. Consumption of turkey and candy canes.

-On years when celebration took place in New England ski lodge, program modified to omit music box, reduce size and ornamentation of tree, and defer post-unwrapping activities so that we wouldn’t be [Dad]wasting a beautiful day and six inches of packed powder with our noses stuck in a book[/Dad].

There, sdimbert, that’s a “secular Christmas.” And damn, they were fun, too.

56

SDIMBERT says:

Hmmm. You must have missed mine. I think I have set forth why IMO Santa is not a religious figure either legally (because he doesn’t promote any particular religious belief) or factually (because he has nothing to do with the religious celebration of Christmas). Do you argue that he is a religious figure? On what basis? The only argument I’ve heard for that proposition is that he is associated with Christmas and everything associated with Christmas must be Christian – including, one presumes, wreaths and Yule logs and other trappings that have pagan roots and even less religious significance that the transmogrified son of a potentially-fictional saint. I do not think this follows. We set off fireworks for the Fourth of July, but they really have nothing to do with U.S. Independence; they are just a trapping of the holiday. So let me ask you a question I’ve already posted: Under what theory would the modern-day reindeer-driving, chimney-sliding, cookies-and-milk-consuming Santa be considered a religious figure?

Fine. Ours does. And I would say that there may be symbols that used to be religious but are not anymore that you may not be aware of, simply because they aren’t religious anymore. In any event, I fail to see why it must be a phenomonon found in your own religion before you can intellectually understand the evolution of symbolic imagery. The swastika used to be a symbol of fertility and good luck (and possibly a religious symbol at that); in the wake of the Nazis, no one thinks that’s what it means anymore.

So is it a secular holiday or a religous one? If secular, do the “religous practices” associated with it then become secular by association? If religious, do the secular trappings of it then become religious? Maybe, like Christmas, it is either or both, depending on who is celebrating it and how they are celebrating it.

JMULLANEY says:

Oh, I don’t know. But it seems to me that the line would be drawn somewhere before fictionalized “venerated members” who are today (and for the past century and a half)really “jolly old elves” (paganism!) whose sole purpose is the non-religious one of bringing gifts to kids, and who deliver those gifts from a sleigh drawn by flying reindeer.

I’m guessing not. You’d probably be better off finding some generally-accepted definitions of “secular” and “religious” and then using your own common sense to determine which heading a particular figure (fictional or not) falls under.

57

Well, I am an atheist, and I celebrate the secular Christmas some folks are talking about. Does it include manger scenes, church services, prayers, or hymns? No. Does it include a tinsel covered tree, presents, candy canes, Frosty the Snowman, Santa Claus, Rudolph, the Grinch, mistletoe (!), and a really big feed? Yes. There is zero religious content in any of that junk. It’s just a big countrywide party that some folks happen to also participate in for religious reasons.

It’s been my experience that far more attention is paid to the trappings of Christmas by the populace at large than the whole birth of Christ stuff. For everyone displaying a sign that says “Jesus is the Reason for the Season” or some big manger scene, there are roughly a gazillion others who have Santa decorations, candy canes glowing in the yard, and Christmas snowmen. In short, except for the more devout, Christmas is almost completely devoid of anything religious. It’s about getting together with friends and family, eating big meals we’ll regret when we step on the bathroom scale, and opening cool presents.

Do religious people who observe Christmas because it’s Christ’s birthday celebration also participate in the secular side of things? Sure, at least most of them do. Does that mean that everyone or even the majority of people who are non-believers are involving themselves in religion by putting up a tree and passing out loot to the kiddies? Of course not. We’re just taking part in the big party is all.

58

KIMSTU:

Omit the dreidel spinning and the music box and add “going to midnight candlelit church services” on Christmas Eve and “reading the story of the birth of Christ from the Bible” on Christmas day, throw in a few Christmas carols (religious and secular) and a creche, and you have the religious-and-secular Christmas of my family.

Every thing else is the same, right down to Dad kicking us readers out of the ski lodge. Scary. :slight_smile:

59

Yes, Christmas can be quite secular, and the symbols associated with it can be too.

Kimstu’s holidays were quite like ours thanks to our poor showing at church. We simply celebrated the “season of giving,” and for us, Santa (among dozens of other icons) represented just that. We made no allusions to his being Saint Nicholas, not took any religious signifance in stars, lights, elves, reindeer, Heat Miser, Frosty or the Winter Warlock. They were seaonal trappings with marketing overtones. And we had alot of fun, too.

Symbols are what you make of them, regardless of origins.

60

Alessan, I regretted posting that almost immediately afterwards. I knew someone was going to bring up Tisha b’Av and Lag b’Omer, etc. I’m speaking from the perspective of an American (and I know you are one, but you’ve mostly living in Israel, right?), and these holidays (with the exception of Tu b’Shvat; I went to a crunchy hippie school and the idea of a birthday for the trees was very appealing) are not celebrated in the US. At least, not in any circles I have travelled in. I had never even heard of Tisha b’Av or Lag b’Omer until I went to Israel. Not saying this is good (bonfires are fun!), but this is my experience.

Gotta love sufganiyot, though!