Ken Lay's Death is BOGUS

[Der_Trihs]

@Lemur866

Yeah, yeah, anyone might be tempted to commit murder for a million dollars. Except in reality that almost never happens.

I disagree, it’s just seldom investigated, because the people involved are wealthy.

@Lemur866

But how often does this really happen? You’d think we’d see stories in the paper every other day about heiresses that bludgeon grandpa in the observatory with the candlestick. But we don’t.

Usually, people will just smirk and wink about how she killed him in bed ( as he’s likely old ), or just treat the idea of her murdering him as funny.

@Lemur866

People with estates and insurance worth much more than 10 million die every day, or at least every other day. Why don’t you suspect murder then?

I do; the subject just doesn’t come up.

@Menocchio

Does anyone have any evidence that Lay was murdered besides a vague suspicion that people wanted him dead?

Because establishing motive isn’t nearly enough, not before you’ve even established foul play.

None, but since there won’t be an investigation, we might as well speculate. It’s not like we can wait till the evidence comes in; there won’t be any.

@Dob

What puzzles me is; If Bush and Co. have the power to fake a death and set Ken up in a new country etc… Why didn’t Bush use that power to just have him found “not guilty”? I mean this is the same president, who by many CT’s, lead the orchestration of 9/11, and kept all the people involved quiet.

Why didn’t they just lay some pressure on a few jurors, or even the Judge. he could have set aside the ruling on any number of points im sure.

Bush could just pardon him, if that’s what he wanted.

@msmith537

Do you think it’s reasonible that a man who defrauded thousands of people out of their life’s savings might have made a few enemies?

I was being sarcastic.

[Voyager]

@rjung

You mean the folks in California who got overpriced electricity bills because Enron was manipulating the supply were allowed to make their payments with play money?

But if they made so much money in trading, they wouldn’t have had to cook the books, would they? They lost that money in their stupid schemes.

I get the impression that our friend, The Fonz hasn’t actually read anything about Enron. Fastow stole the money. Lay was an idiot. The whole thing really unwound when he took over from Skilling and admitted, in public, that he didn’t know what was going on. Remember, he didn’t get convicted for stealing, but for misleading investors. Lay is a classic example of someone who can’t admit to making mistakes, just like someone else I can think of.

And, DerTrihs, you really blew the conspiracy theory. Obviously Cheney killed Lay in order to keep him from talking about the secret energy summit where they spent all night like they always do, planning to take over the world. Lay really died from being shot in the face.

[Evil_Captor]

@Lemur866

Why would, say, George Bush do any favors for Ken Lay? When Ken Lay was a billionaire executive Governor Bush would bend over backwards to do him favors…because Lay was in a position to do him favors in return. What favors was Lay gonna do from behind bars?

Um, not squeal about the things Bush did for him under the table when Lay was a billioinaire corporate titan?

[Dob]

These powerful groups of men have BILLIONS of dollars at their disposal, not just the whole Enron crap because that’s chump change compare to what these groups are worth

Classic stuff! So the money they got from Enron was crap, and these guys are so powerful it is actually easier for them to fake a death than either:

A. Really kill him
B. Get the jury/judge to rule not-guilty

You worry that a not-guilty would have resulted in a riot, and that somehow these powerful billionaires care about that? But they didn’t care that they defrauded hundreds of employees out of pensions and stocks, which shook consumer confidence to its core, and caused the Sarbanes-Oxley bill in response, which in turn lead to a more “clear” business accounting practices.

All of which hampered businesses for months, and in the end probably cost business more money than they would have made from Enron in the first place!!

Yup, all makes sense now… The connections in my head are clicking together…

[Lemur866]

@Evil Captor

Um, not squeal about the things Bush did for him under the table when Lay was a billioinaire corporate titan?

Wait, I thought Bush had him whacked!

Could you guys get your story straight? Was Lay murdered, did he commit suicide, did he fake his death, did he die of a heart attack, or what?

You can’t just argue in the alternative. “You can’t prove it didn’t happen” doesn’t fly here.

[TheFonz]

I see. The police are generally very suspicious of coincidences, but Dopers are to accept them at face value at all times. Yes, that’s the very picture of cynical intelligence examining things logically.

AMEN!!!

[Lemur866]

What evidence do you have that the Feds didn’t send an FBI agent over to the autopsy to check things out?

Am I the only one who can see the connection here? A guy dies mysteriously, any reasonable person would do some investigation. So why do you assert that said investigation didn’t happen? You think you’re the only one who can count to two?

[pravnik]

@TheFonz

What? Why would they have to be bought off? Ken’s dead to them, unless they’re pals, then they already got his new cell phone number. Pay off only those who need to, tell everybody else Ken is dead. The guys who performed his autopsy? Paid off. People who took the body away? Paid off. Anyone I can’t think of off the top of my head but need to be? Paid off. Anyone else is in the dark.

And how are you going to pay off the FBI forensic accountants, or the entire independent accounting firms, that have being going over his finances with an electron microscope to make sure that he’s not doing things like socking away large sums of money in offshore interests? That money doesn’t materialize in Belize; it has to be transferred there by processess that are entirely traceable on this end.

[TheFonz]

And how are you going to pay off the FBI forensic accountants, or the entire independent accounting firms, that have being going over his finances with an electron microscope to make sure that he’s not doing things like socking away large sums of money in offshore interests? That money doesn’t materialize in Belize; it has to be transferred there by processess that are entirely traceable on this end.

:mad: Oh I’m so angry with you, having successfully debunked this theory!

[pravnik]

@Evil Captor

I see. The police are generally very suspicious of coincidences, but Dopers are to accept them at face value at all times. Yes, that’s the very picture of cynical intelligence examining things logically.

The point is that the police have been initmately involved in Ken Lay’s life and finances for quite some time now.

[Larry_Borgia]

Since several fairly intelligent dopers seem to be buying this theory to one degree or another, let me sum up what others have said:

Ken Lay led a workaholic type A high-stress lifestyle. His social wheeling and dealing was fueled by rich food and unhealthy habits. He had a huge ego and genuinely believed he would be aquitted. (Note that he testified in his own defense, against his lawyers advice, and that his own testimony was a key point in the jury’s decision.) He was deeply and visibly shocked when he was convicted. His life was in ruins. He was probably going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Surely it’s possible that someone like this would die of a heart attack, right?

Therefore if you have an alternate theory you need to present actual, material evidence for it. You can’t just make connections in your head. That isn’t evidence.

I am perfectly willing to believe Lay committed suicide
I am perfectly willing to believe Lay was murdered by Bush/Rove/Cheney
I am perfectly willing to believe Lay faked his own death and is off to play poker with Elvis, Jim Morrison, and JFK.
I am perfectly willing to believe that Lay was killed by the Vorlons to foil a Shadow plot.

I just want to see some evidence.

[Lemur866]

@TheFonz

Oh I’m so angry with you, having successfully debunked this theory!

But you do realize that a small army of accountants has gone over Enron’s finances like a school of piranhas skeletonizing a cow?

Yeah, the Enron fraudsters did steal money for themselves. But you do understand that real money isn’t carried around in suitcases? Real money is all electronic, which means that there’s always a record…somewhere. You can’t just withdraw money from the corporate account and deposit it in your Cayman Islands account, because there’s always a record. And cash might not leave traces, but someone has to withdraw the cash. And the person recieving the cash has to spend it somehow…and there’s only so much you can do with stacks of hundred dollar bills.

Why do you think drug lords and mafiosi launder money? Why are they so eager to get their cash into legal bank accounts, why are they so eager to pay taxes on that money? Because in the modern era cash only goes so far. Pay for an airline ticket with cash and they’re likely to flag your name. You can’t buy a car with cash, you can’t buy real estate, you can’t buy stocks, you can’t deposit it in the bank, you can’t do any of the things rich people need to do with their money.

[pravnik]

@TheFonz

:mad: Oh I’m so angry with you, having successfully debunked this theory!

Could you do so again, perhaps with smaller words? Obviously I’m having trouble understanding you.

There’s no “theory” that Lay’s person and finances have been the subject of intense scrutiny; that part’s a fact. Both the Department of Justice and an independent forensic accounting firm have spent the better part of the last four years making the criminal case and tracking down his assets for seizure. The idea that he fooled em’ all and figured out how to physically disappear from right under their noses with millions none of them will miss is hard to swallow.

[Larry_Borgia]

@Voyager

I get the impression that our friend, The Fonz hasn’t actually read anything about Enron. Fastow stole the money. Lay was an idiot. The whole thing really unwound when he took over from Skilling and admitted, in public, that he didn’t know what was going on. Remember, he didn’t get convicted for stealing, but for misleading investors. Lay is a classic example of someone who can’t admit to making mistakes, just like someone else I can think of.

Good point! I didn’t even think of this.

[TheFonz]

Even IF I hadn’t, which I have, what the hell would that matter? I’m not the only guy who thinks Ken Lay isn’t really dead. It would have nothing to do with Ken Lay not being dead. Only a Doper would think that’s a good point, though, I suppose.

[tomndebb]

@TheFonz

I’m not the only guy who thinks Ken Lay isn’t really dead.

No, but as any search on the words “pentagon” and “conspiracy” will turn up, it’s hard to walk down an empty street without bumping into a couple dozen conspiracy believers.

Meanwhile, you are the only one who actually opened a thread to discuss a remote possibility based solely on your desire to believe in unpunished evil, even when you have no evidence to support your belief. (Frankly, this thread remains in this Forum mostly because it appears to me to be a form of religious witnessing.)

[duffer]

So, un, waitaminnit. I need someone to just 'splain this like I’m 5 years old.

So far I’ve missed the point, seen anything resembling a debate, and picked up yet another warning for not debating. I need a few things in this specific thread clarified.

1.) Bush is evil.

2.) Bush is an idiot.

3.) Bush is a patsy controlled by evil forces. (Making him actually innocent in everything)

4.) Bush is responsible for Lay’s death to cover everything up.

5.) Bush is a pawn in a power struggle that involved Lay’s death.

6.) Bush helped orchestrate bad diets that led to Lay’s death.

7.) Bush somehow orchestrated a trial situation that allowed Lay to die before sentencing.

8.) Bush used his madd skillz to kill Lay with no evidence pointing to him.

Have I missed anything? If not, I still have some questions about this to those of you failed scriptwriters.

First, is Bush good or bad in this? Either he was instrumental in Lay’s death, or he did everything he could to protect his “buddy”.

Second, considering the awesome power Bush holds over the world (reference the plethora of comparisons to Hitler), why would a death be needed to help a friend? Paging Marc Rich.

Third, if you can search threads, check out the 1 or 84 OPs started when this whole story broke blaming Bush for the whole thing.

This thread is either blaming Bush for the situation, or blaming someone withing the sphere of influence around Bush.

Very few are willing to accept that Lay was just a crook, nor that he was a crook prior to January 2001. If he really had people in high enough places to protect secrets to keep the current “regime” in power, he’d be tanning in Tahiti right now, not fertilizing daisies.

[Autumn_Almanac]

@Squink

That Nazi Moon Base Battle is still classified, msmith537. You are guilty of TREASON!

@Larry Borgia

Maybe he was killed to hide the truth about the electric sun.

Christ, this thread’s got me laughing so hard I think I’m going to die of a heart attack!

[vibrotronica]

@Larry Borgia

Ken Lay led a workaholic type A high-stress lifestyle. His social wheeling and dealing was fueled by rich food and unhealthy habits. He had a huge ego and genuinely believed he would be aquitted. (Note that he testified in his own defense, against his lawyers advice, and that his own testimony was a key point in the jury’s decision.) He was deeply and visibly shocked when he was convicted. His life was in ruins. He was probably going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Yeah, that’s the thing. People keep throwing the word “coincidence” around. I see a clear line of causation. Man in his sixties, under enormous stress for years, has a heart attack. It sucks that he didn’t have the heart attack and die in prison, but isn’t it totally plausible that the increased stress after the conviction could have been the straw the broke the asshole’s heart? He’s sitting around in his VACATION HOME (don’t get me started on that) waiting to be told he’s going to spend the rest of his life in prison. I would be a little stressed out in that situation.

I believe Oswald was a patsy, but Ken Lay just freakin’ dropped dead.

[Squink]

Second Enron Scandal Dude Found Dead:

“hounded by the FBI”
The discovery comes as MPs debate the controversial decision to extradite three British bankers - dubbed the NatWest Three - to the US to face charges over the scandal.

Coincidence? :dubious:
I think so.