Kentucky teen and Confederate flag prom dress

The BBQ Pit
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Sorry for being absent from this thread for so long. I was at my parents’ house for the holidays and didn’t really have a chance to dope.

Anyhow, this ground has been somewhat covered, but… I said that the old south was approximately as evil as Nazi Germany. I stand by that statement. Note, however, that not every single person who lived in Nazi Germany was evil. Some were evil. Some lived in an evil society, but did good things and were otherwise good people. And some actively fought against the evil of their society. The same could be said of the old south.

Anyhow, back to the main issue of the thread… many people have expressed an opinion something like “the confederate flag is bad and hurtful, but I thing this girl still had the right to wear it, because that’s the price we pay for freedom of expression”. I don’t think it’s that simple, however. Freedom of expression is not absolute, nor should it be. For instance, libel, slander, invasion of privacy, fighting words, and revealing confidential information are all illegal, and should be.

So the issue is not simply “it’s free expression, therefore it should be allowed, period paragraph end of story”. Should a student be allowed to attend a public school wearing a shirt with a photograph of a lynching labelled “a good start”? What about a huge swastika on the front and quotations from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion on the back? A public school (and things attached to it, like proms) are not solely public fora for the exchange of ideas, although that’s an incredibly important role. They are also places where it’s important that all students feel safe enough that they are able to learn and be a part of the community. And I don’t mean that in some touchy-feely “ooh, no one can be offended at all” fashion. I mean that in a “if someone leaves school every day scared for their physical safety, something is wrong” fashion.

If some student wants to write and speak about their incredibly racist views outside of school, that is their absolute right (barring some very very distant limitations concerning inciting immediate violence). But wearing visible symbols of hatred in a public school is a different matter entirely.
As for whether the confederate flag is a symbol of hatred, well, that’s being debated even as we speak. The point I’m trying to make is that I dismiss the claim that it’s simply a free speech issue.

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No. I did not imply that the wrong side won. You have mistakenly inferred that.

Southerners at that time believed that what they were doing was the right thing to do – just as the Revolutionaries believed that breaking away from England was the right thing to do. If the Revolutionaries had lost, history would have remembered them as traitors and Benedict Arnold as a hero. The winners get to write the history books.

I was trying to describe for you and others how the South viewed their flag at the time of the Civil War. Please notice that I used the past tense and then went on to describe how despicable the institution of slavery was – even in the quote that you used. How could you possibly think that I would be sorry that the South lost?

Didn’t say they were part of the Confederacy. But they were a big part of slavery. This is a recording.

That is a stereotype, Little Nemo. We are more interested in the Civil War than the rest of the country, true. It does not follow that we are exclusively interested in that period and no other.

I am surrounded by Civil War battlefields. My daughter’s house sits on one. The street that I can see a block away makes a direct reference to the war. It’s like that in so much of the South. If we are to be interested in the history of the land we live on and the towns we live in, there is no getting away from the influence of the Civil War. You wouldn’t expect us to live in a coastal town and ignore the history of ship-building, shipwrecks, hurricanes, family seafood recipes, old family whaling stories, etc.

Why are you interested only in the 228 years that we have been the United States of America and not the years – the centuries – leading up to that?

villa, I hope that you see this. When I was at Peabody in the 1960’s, the dorm was no longer reserved for “Daughters of the Confederacy.” We were offered the rooms at a considerably reduced rate. My father was very tight-fisted about money with me, but he would never have considered allowing me to stay there. I loved him for that. (BTW, the president of that dorm the year I graduated was a woman of color.) I am so glad that they are changing or have changed the dorm! THANKS!

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The thing is, this isn’t about a symbol of “the South”, it’s about a symbol of the Confederacy, and the Confederacy was all about slavery. If someone reacted to one of those “American by birth, Southern by the grace of God” bumper stickers with a tirade about the evils of slavery, I would be inclined to agree with you (assuming the bumper sticker in question didn’t have a little Confederate flag on it). But we Southerners can’t very well berate everyone for constantly associating the South with slavery and racism, and then turn around and insist that they accept as a symbol of our Southern-ness the political emblems of the period when our ancestors tried to found an entire nation based on the preservation of slavery and the supremacy of the “white race”.

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Personally, I’ve decided to blame The Dukes of Hazzard.

Zoe may well be correct that the Confederate battle flag wasn’t much a part of the Southern landscape before 1960. Of course, the need for symbolic white supremacy wasn’t as pressing then: drinking fountains, lunch counters, schools, etc., all served as potent and real reminders, as did a bunch of hooded, cross-burning yahoos who were much more vigorous and active then than they are now. Then, for the second time in a century, the Federal government started meddling in the affairs of Southern states, and again it revolved mostly about the treatment of black people by white people (let’s face it: interference in the form of rural electrification just didn’t provoke the same hostility). Shortly thereafter, the old standard began to appear again. Well, the timing was interesting, to say the least. The first time the flag flew it meant defiance of Federal interference with respect to whites’ treatment of blacks. It popped up again when Southern states were angry and defiant about Federal interference with respect to whites’ treatment of blacks. This time, however, it was a banner without an army, so it was mostly let alone. In this environment, it passed into the popular culture and thrived. Fast-forward a few decades.

I’m perfectly willing to admit that there may now be people who favor the Confederate battle flag in complete innocence of it’s history and associations. I would call these people exceptionally ignorant, and I think that they are foolish to use it, as I would think someone foolish who shouts, in French, “I hate you and I’d like to rape your pets,” not understanding a word of it, and then is surprised and hurt when someone gets mad at them. Not only that, but goes on to insist that they have the right to continue shouting and that all the French-speakers are wrong about the meaning of what they’re saying anyway, because it’s just their way of expressing themselves.

The problem with symbols, like words, is that they have meaning regardless of whether the user knows it or not. Symbols can become diluted or tainted, it’s true: an American flag can stand for a lot of things, some admirable and some not. When a symbol admits of several meanings, there can be leeway in interpretation and tolerance is mandated on the part of those who take offense. The Confederate battle flag is not so open: it does not come with unfortunate associations and baggage, it is all baggage. It was created as the emblem for armed insurrection and treason in defense of one of the worst crimes a civilization can commit. In its first incarnation it had no other purpose and no other meaning.

Of course Southerners are not uniquely responsible for slavery, racism, or any other evil (and that’s the last time I’ll address that particular red herring). But their fondness for the Confederate battle flag expresses either an appalling ignorance of the heritage they are extolling with it, or something much worse.

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Got it-sorry, I thought that since the post was “addressed” to me, that comment was also.

Well, at the risk of sounding picayune–you misunderstood me. I did indeed mean that the White Trash image is commonly acknowledged–but I meant in the general population, not by Southerners at all–again, I don’t agree with it-stereotyping is stereotyping, no matter the group. I did not mean that I thought that the poor whites in the South considered themselves trash.

But as I think we both know, trash lives everywhere. (joke).

Thankee kindly. I am getting better at this quote stuff (everyday in everyway…heh). But I am still confused as to dues paying and flag burning–please elucidate, if you so desire.

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Ya know, if someone hadn’t told me it was meant to be Confederate flag-inspired, I would have thought it was based on the American flag. It’s the particular shade of red used, I think. The CSA flag is a more orangey red, while the dress seems to be a true red, like the USA flag. Yeah, I know, there’s stars on the blue sash, but the stars are on the blue in the US flag, too. I really think she could have just said, “Oh, no, Principal Schmuck, you must have misheard, this is based on the American flag,” and it would have all blown over.

And yes, this principal is a schmuck. He seems to have taken it upon himself to single out one student for something that he anticipates might potentially somehow cause a disruption although it never has before, and to communicate this by calling her at home the night before prom. And then he apparently became mildly physically violent with her. This is stupid on a whole lot of levels. On a personal level, where the hell does he expect her to get another dress on that kind of notice? I think the nearest place she could possibly go shopping for something like that is Lexington, and I think that’s an hour or so away. And most schools around home have prom on Friday, which means she would have had school. Going to Lexington and finding a dress between school and the prom…that’s not really doable. At that point, her options were to wear the dress, go in something completely inappropriate, or stay home after going to all this time, effort, and expense. They put her in a no-win situation.

And it was so incredibly fucking stupid on a professional level. For one thing, singling her out when other students have worn Confederate flag stuff without incident doesn’t seem to be a legally tenable position. It seems to fall pretty squarely under the Tinker umbrella. Exposing the school system to a lawsuit is bad. Exposing them to a lawsuit that could be successful is really bad. Doing this completely unnecessarily is just phenomenally awful, at least if you want to keep your job. Slamming your hand down on a student’s car while screaming is often even worse for your career. And having unmonitored private communication with a student…dear god, she could have accused him of saying anything. If she’d accused him of saying something sexual, or making a violent threat against her, his career would be over. Even if he was cleared, his career would still be over. That was just a mind-bogglingly stupid move if he wants to stay in education.

And as a reminder, slavery was the cornerstone of the Southern economy. You can’t tell a nation that you’re going to collapse their entire economy and not expect them to kick up a fuss. It’s just not reasonable. Of course the South was willing to go to war over the issue. People nearly always are when there’s a whole hell of a lot of money at stake. And people who stand to lose a whole hell of a lot of money can whomp up a whole lot of emotion about flag and country and mother and apple pie and all that tommyrot.

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I disagree. It was first a symbol of the Confederacy. Then it became a symbol of the Southland. Eventually, for a growing number, it became a symbol of bigotry and oppression because of its original association with the Confederacy and its fight to preserve States’ Rights, especially slavery. It was also associated with the fight to preserve Jim Crow laws that pervaded the South. And of course, it was used by white supremacy groups.

But that’s just it. I’m not one of those who is insisting that they accept the Confederate flag as a symbol of our Southernness. I don’t accept it myself. I hate that flag and everything it stands for in my eyes.

There are still some who claim to see it as a symbol of the South. Neither you nor I are in a position to judge their motives or viewpoints. I do know that that is how I saw it in the 1950’s. I guess my conscienceness-raising occured sometime in the 1960’s. It is not just a symbol of the Confederacy for me. It is a symbol of hatred and racial bigotry.

My grandfather did not have a stone marking his grave until 1976, but my father put one up at my request. The inscription mentions that he was a soldier in the Civil War but made no mention that he was a Confederate. That was intentional. And both my father and I have spent our lives trying to do things to make things better in the South.

I’ve noticed your location. Have you always lived there? It was one of your former mayors (A.Y.) that taught me the songs We Shall Overcome and Eyes On the Prize when we were both very young in 1961.

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That is not what I said. It was definitely a part of the Southern landscape before then. But to the best of my knowledge, for white people, it was not seen as a symbol of racial bigotry until the mid 1950’s or early 1960’s.

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Sure, maybe, in hindsight. Without hindsight, it seems just as possible that he’d let the girl go into the prom, some black students would complain, their complaint would be picked up nationally, and blah blah blah. He may have put the girl in a no-win situation, but she put him in a no-win situation. (Certainly, he should have done a better job of establishing a firm policy early on and sticking to it.)

[overused but still valid comparison]
Stealing gold teeth from the mouths of murdered Jews was the cornerstone of the Nazi economy. You can’t tell a nation that you’re going to collapse their entire economy and not expect them to kick up a fuss. It’s just not reasonable.
[/overused but still valid comparison]

Seriously, this thread just cracks me up. First, slavery was a wart. Now, the civil war was “kicking up a fuss”.

I don’t care what slavery was the cornerstone of. It was monstrously evil then, although it’s certainly understandable (if not forgiveable) that many people didn’t realize it. In retrospect, it’s still monstrously evil, and far more clearly so. The fact that southern society was built upon it doesn’t make slavery any less monstrously evil, it just makes southern society (at the time) itself monstrously evil.

Also note that people keep saying things like “you can’t tell a nation that…”. Ya know, I think a pretty large portion of that nation would have been THRILLED to have slavery end. Like, ya know, maybe, THE SLAVES???

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OK, I’ve let this bit of idiocy about my “warts and all” comment pass a couple of times now, but Jesus H Christ buddy, fuck you. The expression “warts and all” is commonly used to refer to accepting *all * the things about someone or something - both the good and the bad.

Perhaps you’ve never heard of the expression. If that’s the case perhaps you should get out more. Google shows over 177,000 hits, so it can’t be that obscure.

Perhaps you would have preferred that I had just used “the good with the bad”, but, no, then you’d be complaining that I’m putting slavery into the same category of “bad” as bad manners, bad hair day and the like.

Taking a figurative expression and putting a literal meaning is a chicken shit rhetorical stunt that doesn’t advance the discussion and makes you look like a dick. :wally

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When I say that I’ve paid my dues, I am referring to many things, but mostly the twenty years I spent teaching in urban high schools in the South. That was the assignment that I requested when I began teaching and that is where I chose to stay until I became too ill to teach. This is something that tens of thousands of others Southerners do every day and there is nothing special about it. But it does show that I did more than just talk about the injustice that had been done.

The flag burning reference was about the Confederate flag. I would have absolutely no problem with burning one. For me, it does not represent the South that I love so much.

If I were designing a flag for the South, I would be sure to incorporate the Stars and Stripes in some way so that no one would doubt that we are firmly a part of this country.

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You know, I’m of two minds about this. On the one hand, I agree that it’s quite possible to quite legimately use language like “warts and all” to describe things that are truly horrifying. On the other hand, (a) I wasn’t accusing you of nasty racism or anything, and (b) there is some danger in using “safe” or “cute” language to describe things that are truly horrifying. It’s much easier to gloss over the horror of slavery when we discuss “the peculiar institution” than if we call it “slavery”.

Anyhow, as I said, I wasn’t intending to be accusing you of anything, and if you felt personally attacked, I apologize.

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There was somewhat of a fight over it, as the condition of the gift was that the dorm be named as it was. As far as I know, Vandy won the court case outright, though something could be pending. I know my contracts professor said she thought they did not have much of a chance of preventing the renaming. From what I saw (and I have very little contact with the undergraduate body) the students were pretty much in favor of the name change, which surprised me, given the exposure I have had to them has not been overwhelmingly positive.

Other than that, the impression I get is that Vandy has not changed a vast amount since your times there…

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Brown v. Board: 1954. Georgia incorporates the Confederate battle flag into its state flag: 1955. South Carolina follows: 1962. Alabama follows: 1963 (not in its state flag but by raising the battle flag also over the state house). Before this, there is little evidence of widespread popular usage of the emblem. Any earlier than that, and one didn’t exactly have to look for symbolic racism; quarrels over a flag would necessarily have faded in to the background of segregation, discrimination and lynchings. So I’m not eager to embrace the unsupported contention that there was ever a time when the battle flag was both prominent and considered benign, and I cannot see why, even if it were true, why “so what?” wouldn’t be a sufficient answer. Oh, well. At least we’re not still debating the possibility that the damned thing got on all those T-shirts, hats and cars by some unforeseeable accident.

To my eyes, there’s no longer much of a debate about the legality of displaying Confederate battle flags or other paraphernalia, nor any defense of the moral or intellectual rationale for actually doing so (Zoe’s unparalelled egalitarian credentials notwithstanding).

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I’m not claiming that everyone who displays a Confederate flag is a supporter of slavery, segregation, or white supremacy. I’m sure many of them aren’t. But I don’t think that the symbols of the Confederacy can be somehow separated from the historical realities of the Confederacy and turned into uncontroversial symbols of “Southerness”. I also strongly suspect that a large majority of those claiming the Confederate flag as a non-hateful symbol of “Southern heritage” would also claim that the South seceded to protect “state’s rights” and not to protect slavery, and that slavery was somehow not really the central issue which led to the war. However sincere they may be in that belief, they’re still wrong.

I grew up around Atlanta (in Cobb County). I wasn’t actually born here–I was born in Illinois–but that was pretty much just an accident of circumstance; my dad was in the Army at the time and was stationed in Illinois. Both my parents were born in the South (Georgia and Arkansas) and I have Southern roots going way back on both sides of my family. I’m sure I had ancestors who fought for the Confederacy; I’m not sure if I had any who fought for the Union.

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Well, this native Son of the South thinks that at the very least, this girl should have realized that she was going to hurt some other people’s feelings.

Want to celebrate your heritage? Proud of where you are from? Wear a prom dress fashioned after your state flag, ya dizzy so-and-so. I keep hearing all these “modern Confederates” singing the same ol’ “The Civil War was about States Rights!” tune so damned much-- slap up a flag of Kentucky, or wherever, and get on with your life.

( From your Wartime Consigliori, whose great-great grandfather got his arm blown off at Manassas )