Hmmm…is that limited to sitting and standing, or would it include bowing and kneeling as well:
“Now class, we’ve set up this statue of the President at the front of the room. Every morning we’re going to have a little prayer and ritual sacrifice to the God-Man in the White House, that he may bless this school. Of course, if you’re a Christian or a Jew or some other kind of weird cultist, our President has benevolently exempted you from saying the actual prayer or slaughtering the actual bunny, like all your normal gods-fearing classmates will be doing, but you are expected to get down on your knees and bow your heads, as a sign of respect for this Great Nation of ours.”
Please, Hamish. I did not claim that the U.S. enjoyed absolute freedom and paradise on Earth. The United States obviously has many flaws, including a pre-college educational system that is the laughingstock of the civilized world, and an abiding legacy of prejudice and mistrust between its racial groups, to name just two of the worst problems. And I certainly would not blame any homosexual for preferring your country’s more tolerant atmosphere and laws to those of my own homeland.
However, Jello’s accusation that the U.S. lacks freedom of speech is conspicuously absent from America’s long list of real drawbacks. And while my own ignorance keeps me from comparing the United States’ freedom of speech to Denmark’s, I do think it compares very well to Canada’s. According to Canadians that I have read, material that would be censored in Canada for obscenity or national security reasons can be freely published here. I doubt the Pentagon Papers could have been published in Canada; they certainly could not have been in Britain with its Official Secrets Act. Even such a disgusting group as the American Nazi Party has free speech in the United States, which is not so even in such comparatively democratic countries as Germany and Austria.
The U.S. is imperfect in many ways. But it does have free speech, to a degree scarcely known in any previous era of history, and that matches up well to any modern country that I know of. And damned if I’ll refrain from pricking the provincial little balloon of any Jello who fearlessly denounces the sins (both real and imagined) of the U.S. government in a public forum and then complains that he has no free speech.
So in order to protect the flag which represents the ideals you love so much (as embodied in the US Constitution) you will violate someone’s right to free speech (as embodied in the US Constitution) thereby shaming the very flag you’re trying to protect? You’re a piece of work, Mr. Self-Contradictory.
So long as my children, when I get around to raising some, end up with respect for other people, and respect for themselves, then all the other positive behaviors will follow. No idolatry like yours needed. Thanks, though.
If they turn into someone like you who is so caught up in their own worldview and begin to consistently disrespect other people, perhaps to the end of using violence as you advocate, I will strap on their jackboots and they can join your personal flag-defending army of right-denying goons. How about that?
You’re funny; although I don’t think you meant to be.
The same way as what? Do you mean that nobody stands during the pledge or that it’s required for all to stand and recite it by rote?
Please scroll up to where I asked MoonGazer to not confuse a private entity with a government entity.
The Roman Catholic Church does not require those not of that faith to actively participate in a religious rite. They may be required to attend the Mass (for a good reason: first-hand information) but they certainly don’t require them to consume the Host. The parents of the children enrolled are informed of what will and what will not be required of their children whilst enrolled. I’m willing to bet real money that if a Jehovah’s Witness were to enroll his child in a Roman Catholic school, that child would not be required to stand and recite a pledge, but to not disrupt it.
That’s because people of many religions respect the very good education that the RC church has managed to develop.
That’s not the purpose of enrolling non-Catholics in the school. The purpose is to give them an education.
Many of the graduates I know of Catholic schools are able to explain, accurately, what Buddhism, Islam, Agnosticism, Atheism, Zorastrianism, and other beliefs are. Maybe you haven’t paid all that much attention in class. Your atrocious spelling, grammar, and logicless post don’t indicate that you did.
Two things here:
(1) You were complaining above about what a private entity did, not a government entity. Those are very different in the United States. We do not have a State religion.
(2) The United States has not defied its premise. {See below.}
The representative government of the United States, at all levels, is composed entirely of people elected to such positions. Those same people are not elected to any “life offices.” They must stand for re-election. Some win, some lose. Those who lose re-election were voted out by the people participating in “a government of the people, for the people, and by the people.” BTW, IIRC those were words from a speech, not the Constitution. The Constitution uses the words “In order to form a more perfect union.”
I’m very sure your real issue is not being eligible to vote because you’re not 18. Well, that’s not ageism. It’s the way it is because the Constitution has it that way. When you’re old enough to vote, vote for a change to it. Although you are not old enough to vote (assuming that you’re 17 and a High School Junior}, you still may agitate lawfully {unlike Gazer’s illegal assault} for reform of the government. You can initiate a petition drive, you can write to or meet with your local, County, State, and Federal representatives, or you could avail yourself of the news media to uncover illegalities in government.
A final note on this issue: You may also post outrageously incorrect assertions about the true state of this country’s government in public (as you just did) with no fear of arrest. That’s because it’s not only a government of the people, by the people and for the people, but also a free country.
A note on Scholastics: I certainly hope the work you submit to your teachers is much better than your post here. The Catholic School teachers of my acquaintance do tend to grade strictly.
In same fashion that other criminals like your self have the personal right to rob banks, molest children, and commit other acts of violence, and face the consequences afterwards. If that is what you mean by personal right, you’re pretty twisted.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Monty *
Would that you would occasionaly learn instead.
So Monty, what did I spell wrong again…maybe YOU are the one that should be hitting the spellchecker, because if you go back to read my post, you should find that i didn’t spell jack shit wrong… and excuse me for my post not being grammatically perfect, sorry English God
TheMoonGazer, I would like to remind you that disrespect for America and what it stands for isn’t the only reason for refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. As others have pointed out, some see it as violation of their religious beliefs. Do you think it is at all acceptable to make these children feel like they have to choose betweed being punished by the school and being punished by God? They aren’t hurting anybody by not participating.
You have made it very clear that you have a problem with people who show disrespect for our nation, but are you aware that respect is a two-way street? Trying to gain respect by force is a quick way to lose it.
One thing is apparent to me after reading Moongazer’s posts (other than the fact that he is a self-contradictory, brutal, and narrow-minded zealot). He hasn’t been in a classroom in a long, long time.
I have. I’ve spent the last six months in schools - elementary, middle, and primarily high school - doing observations, tutoring, and student teaching. The Pledge of Allegiance is given every day, and every day, the students stand. Whether or not all of them recite the Pledge is hard to say. I don’t search every student’s face looking for compliance. I leave out “under God” myself because I believe that phrase belies the First Amendment.
I have yet to see a student act in any manner that could be considered disrespectful. Also, I have yet to see any student consider the Pledge to be anything other than a boring waste of time, one more pointless ritual to be covered as the day begins. I suspect the reason why is because they are required to give lip service to a concept that deserves far more than rote memorization.
Anytime you demand that “respect” be given to an idea, a symbol, or a piece of decorated cloth, you have taken away the opportunity to do so in a meaningful and real manner. Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance on a daily basis does not inculcate patriotism in children. It bores them. It mocks the very sacrifice others have made to make this nation a better place. So, if a student has become so disenchanted with a show of patriotism that they prefer disruption or disrespect, Moongazer has only himself to blame for it.
There is a word for forcing another person to love. It’s called “rape”. It is the antithesis of the ideals you say you stand for, Moongazer.
So, in other words, you would rather they go ahead and give the pledge, and then turn into jack booted thugs who beat the shit out of people who disagree?
Moongazer-is this a joke? Please, I can’t BELIEVE anyone would believe such drivel!
ok, as a student at a high school, i really dont see a problem w/ not standing for the pledge. my reasoning~
its a right of everyone (including children) to do as they please as far as speech and stuff like that. they do not have to say the pledge, stand for it or anything of the sort.
many students get tired of the pledge and it becomes a tedious ritual that has almost no meaning whatsoever anymore. as for myself, i no longer say the pledge. why? because i refuse to say anything that no longer has meaning to the people saying it. the pledge in itself has meaning, but while in class (especially in high school) its just another thing on the announcements that has to be done. now dont get me wrong, i like hearing the pledge, and i know some people who like saying it, but to me, its more meaningful to look at the flag and remember than to say a pledge. i have a strong respect for my country and especially for the military. the flag is my symbol, along w/ the anthem. the pledge has a much smaller meaning to me.
as for the violence because of harming the flag…
well that to me is wrong in itself. the flag stands for the country and freedom of just about everything. that also means the right to do whatever you want to that flag. so if you hurt a person because they are practicing what the flag guarantees, then you are hurting the flag worse than the person. and by doing that, the person hurting the flag is more patriotic than you would be, no matter what the reasoning. now if the guy was saying something totally out of whack about the country or the people then, there may be a chance, because your defending the country.
but over all, in my opinion, someone who has nothing good to say will be ignored unless he irritates someone else, then and only then will he be seen.
Junior, I misspelled “euphemism.” You, on the other hand, have failed to see that I was addressing the totality of your effort. As far as spelling goes, most educated folks use capitals and other punctuation. As far as grammar goes, most educated folks use punctuation. As far as logic goes, most educated folks have (1) a point to their essay and (2) proof (examples, citations) to bolster that point. Your posting has none of the above. Feel free, though, to leave all that out and see if you’re considered as having knowledge of the subject at hand.
Feel free to confer with your English teacher. For the fun of it, though, I’ll “diagram” the sentence for you.
I (understood, thus not written)
would (verb, carrying the meaning of: strongly desire) {You may check any dictionary to verify this.}
that (conjunction) {You may check any dictionary to verify this.}
you {subject of the clause}
would {auxiliary for the verb “learn”}
occasionally {adverb, misspelled as “occasionaly”}
learn {verb}
instead {adverb}
My misspellings did not detract from the point. You, on the other hand, had no point.
You didn’t forget to give the drive-thru customers their straws and ketchup packets, I hope.
First of all, in case you haven’t been paying attention, it’s not a rule that everyone has to say the pledge of alliegance. If it was, it would be unconstitutional.
Secondly, I have no idea what you’re getting at with your “personal right” statement. I assume by your example that I could consider it my “personal right” to murder anyone I desire and face the consequences afterward. I’m sure even you must see the fallacy here. You have no legal or constitutional right to assault another human being because you don’t agree with his politics or the (legal) means he uses to express them. Then again, I guess it never stopped people like the Klan.
I, too, just want to say that I’m a veteran (U.S. Army), and your form of “patriotism” (let’s face it, jingoism is the more proper term) is disturbing and has nothing to do with the ideals this country was founded upon. You seem to take pride in your knee-jerk reactionary approach to patriotism; you talk a lot, but unlike many of the veterans posting here (myself excluded - my reasons for joining the military were admittedly more personal than ideological), you never actually did anything to serve your beloved country at all, as far as I can tell. And I also didn’t stand or recite the pledge in class (atheist, didn’t believe in what it said, etc.) - I was the only one, and one teacher talked to me about it, but he didn’t try to coerce me in any way; he seemed more concerned that I might be making myself a target for the other kids. Anyway, pretty much everybody here has done a fine job of trying to set you straight, so I’m not going to beat a dead horse. But you’re dead wrong, and you’re not coming off as being too good at logical debate, either.
There comes a time in each person’s life when he needs to stand up for what he believes in. In current times, the belief systems, in my opinion, have degraded to honoring money, power, luxury and one-upmanship. Schools have, thanks to the parents, lost control of the children they need to educate. Without guidance, kids are kids and revert to childish barbarism. Schools had loose dress codes, meaning kids had to dress neatly but in almost what they desired. Not like today, where they arrive in baggy, draggy, gangsta dress, wearing shirts with slogans, sporting gang colors, weird hair cuts, skin heads and beards.
Parents accepted teachers physically grabbing their kids as needed and rarely was anyone injured or abused. Slugging a teacher got the kid jailed, suspended, parents went to court and fines were levied, plus the kid might or might not be able to return to school. Lockers, the property of the school, did not require search warrants. Parents had no problem, if there was a reason, to have their kids locker searched. Now warrants are needed. A disruptive child in class could be removed, by force if necessary. Touch a kid now and dad shows up with his team of lawyers. Attitudes were watched. Thugs got treated like thugs and removed if necessary. Children being suspected of carrying contraband could be searched, and parents approved. Now, you need a warrant and an officer present. Lawyers line up to let you know why a kid, who may be dripping crack, may not be searched by teachers. Kids never, ever dared accuse a teacher of molestation, just because they wanted to get back at him or her. Now, it happens a lot and not just in school, because the kids know that the trouble they cause the adult will be expensive and severe and even when he or she is found innocent, many will believe he actually did it and his local career will be ruined. Plus, as they are kids, very little punishment will happen to them for starting the lie. It is a win/win situation for the kid. Parents are responsible for this for not instilling respect in their kids.
A kid no longer needs to dress out in gym. A kid may not be ‘bullied’ by his PE coach. A kid may not be ridiculed or harshly disciplined for disrupting class. A kid may dress as wildly as he chooses in school and any effort to discourage this promotes lawsuits concerning civil rights, civil liberties, racism and discrimination. Oh, yah, lets not forget suppression of freedom of expression.
A kid knows that no one, including his folks, may actually force him to do anything and if he is too friggin’ stupid to get to the next grade, the school will be pressured to pass him anyhow or face lawsuits for failing to educate the little b*****d, who f****d off in class because the teacher had no means to make him behave and listen.
In short, thanks to parents, if a kid doesn’t want to do something in school, he doesn’t have to. He doesn’t have to listen to teacher, he doesn’t have to obey the dress code, he doesn’t have to submit to searches for contraband, he doesn’t have to be questioned without a lawyer present, he doesn’t have to attend school functions, he doesn’t have to be cooperative, he doesn’t have to do a drug test, he doesn’t have to learn to read, doesn’t have to learn to write, to learn to do math, to learn history, to learn English, to get good grades to pass, and now, he doesn’t have to stand up for the Pledge.
Why do you f***s send your kids to public schools anyhow, when you agree with them just sitting there like lumps of mold, doing nothing because that’s their right? Then you bitch about teachers not keeping schools safe, not teaching your kids right, and too much drugs and violence in school.
We, you all allowed it. You fail to teach your kids respect or pride in their nation or anything else.
I’m not blind to the faults of the US, but I respect and admire it. I respect it’s basic founding philosophies, the essential principals, and it’s great history in humanities throughout the world. I respect the Flag as a symbol of the nation.
Destroy the flag in front of me for some stupid reason and foul it in the dirt, and I will probably hurt you, badly. The symbol of our nation is part of me and I it, so when you spit on it, you spit on me, on my fathers efforts in WW2, on my brothers efforts in Ethiopia in the Army, on the soldiers in Dessert Storm, on the soldiers who died for what they believed in during Vietnam, and on the nonmilitary greats who gave the world electric power, autos, medicines, greater food production, civil rights, a safe haven from oppression and equal rights for all.
You grumble and gripe about 'Nam, but Americans went there believing in what they did, fought under circumstances never before imagined and died under horrible conditions, but they fought. When they came home, you spit on them. Called them baby killers. Dishonored their efforts. The war they fought helped stop the spread of communism in the long run by teaching the communist country’s that Americans could and would fight.
Most of you were little kids then, so you don’t recall the threat of Kruschev made to the US: “We will bury you.” And the fat f**k meant it.
So you use things like 'Nam as a reason to disrespect the flag. You dredge up American failures for the same reasons, forgetting about the many, many great deeds the nation has done.
You live in a free nation, which, in my opinion, is the greatest, and agree with kids not standing up for the pledge. You probably never bothered to explain to your little demented off spring just why it is honorable to stand up for the Pledge.
Then again, you probably don’t know why yourselves.
Just remember, these little f***s who will not respect the flag now, will be the leaders of tomorrow and then, you’ll pay the price. Unfortunately, we all will.
My kids know why they should stand and respect the flag. My kids know American history.
Rereading the OP, I noticed something I’d overlooked at first glance. Did anybody else notice how casually Moongazer equated refusal to pledge allegiance to the flag with spitting on it or burning it?
Without descending to Moongazer’s type of thuggery, I will readily admit that I feel some pretty negative emotions toward people who spit on the U.S. flag or burn it in a disrespectful manner.* I don’t feel any comparable hostility toward people who don’t pledge allegiance to the flag, whether for religious or other reasons. You can have respect for a person or a country without pledging allegiance to it.
Barring a totalitarian takeover of the U.S. or something equally far-fetched, I wouldn’t pledge allegiance to the flag of France, the United Kingdom, or Canada; even though they are all great and free nations, my first loyalty lies elsewhere. But I’d never willingly burn or spit on the Union Jack, the maple leaf, or the tricolor. I respect those countries and their people, and I would never want to offer them such a calculated insult.
I was threatened with detention for not having ashes placed on my forehead. I suppose you could argue that that wasn’t an “official” act of the Church, but it was done by a representative of the church.
