Kidswalking at night

In My Humble Opinion
41

Not only are there many 14 year old girls who have self-confidence to deal with sexual harassment on the street, there is no reason why they ought to.

And frankly, I think that’s the least of your worries, and even if it were the worst that happened to her, why should she have to be a target for that kind of treatment?

This is your child. Her hesitance to walk around after dark is not “giving in” and being “hostage” to fears of bad things happening?

Unlikely worst case scenarios? One out of every three women in the United States will be raped or sexualy assaulted in her lifetime. That’s not exactly “unlikely.” What sorts of things do safety experts tell women to do to keep themselves safe, to lessen the chances of attack? Exactly the kinds of things that kittenblue described in her post. First and foremost on every single one of their lists is “Don’t do stupid stuff like walking around alone, after dark.”

Refusing to leave the house because bad things might happen is being held hostage to unreasonable fears. Refusing to ride a bus because bus crashes always seem to kill numerous people is being held hostage to unreasonable fears.

But refusing to place yourself into a situation of obvious heightened danger and to do so unnecessarily is called prudence. It’s called wisdom. It’s called self-preservation.

Especially, most especially when you are a young, small, female who knows, instinctively, that you are automatically at an extreme disadvantage if someone should try to harm you, and who knows that you are a perfect target for those who wouldn’t try to harm but get their rocks off in bothering young women.

Most fathers I know are horrified at the idea of their young daughters being alone, out on the streets, after dark. You want to force your young daughter to be, in direct contradiction to her common sense based opposition, and years of bright thinking by concerned parents worldwide.

If your daughter were 17 or 18, I might say otherwise. But at 14, just finishing elementary school for pete’s sake, what are you thinking? She’s a little girl who doesn’t feel safe. You’re not talking about telling her to get into the swimming pool and try to get from one side to the other while you stand there watching. You’re not talking about trying to get her to face her fears of riding a two-wheeler bike while you’re running behind, ready to scoop her up if she falls. You’re talking about forcing a child to spend a half-hour in the dark, walking a mile, without anyone’s knowledge of exactly where she was, and completely without protection.

Get her a ride or a way of getting home safely in a group. Go pick her up, or arrange carpooling. Don’t make your daughter become a target because you think she’s not properly confronting unfounded fears. Until you live in her body and face the same level of dangers that she would, walking alone in the dark night after night, you can’t make a fair judgment as to what is and is not an appropriate amount of fear on her part. Protect your child, and don’t give her a reason to mistrust your judgment.

42

Hi, Dinsdale.

I’m an avid walker, and teach fitness walking classes.

Safety is an important issue for walkers, particularly for women walkers. As a 6’+ adult male, the idea of having the need to be aware of your surroundings probably has never really crossed your radar screen, but it is an important survival instinct, especially for women.

I don’t like the idea of having to be paranoid about where I walk, but it is an instinct I have cultivated, based upon having been in some scary circumstances. I love walking alone, and resent that I have to be selective about when and where I do this (during daylight hours, and in areas where I know there will be at least a bit of traffic), but it’s something I do for my own safety.

You can find some decent links on walking safety here. The “Safety II: Stranger Danger” is probably the most useful, as are the RRCA running guidelines. (As a student, of course, she’ll have to ignore any of the suggestions about taking weapons/pepper spray, etc., as this would likely get her expelled.)

As others have noted, one of the big safety tips is NOT to follow the same route at the same time — being predictable makes it easy for a stalker to plan an attack. Unfortunately, a bee-line straight home after band practice is such a predictable pattern.

If it were me/my kid, I would suggest the following:

  1. If it’s broad daylight, walk home.

  2. If the release time puts your kid walking at dusk, go for the following:

Plan A is to walk home with other kids from the neighborhood. If no others are walking, and if other neighborhood band parents will be giving their kids a ride home, try to cadge a ride — IF there is a safe driver going her way. (As a former band kid and current parent, I find the thought of my child riding with certain other band kids to be a far scarier prospect than having her walk alone. It might be a good idea to set up a car pool, even.) If she can’t get a ride, let her call home. You can leave home walking at the same time to meet her mid-way. (If, as you said, it’s only .5 - .75 miles, this should only leave you with a 5 minute walk to meet her halfway. The exercise will be good for you, and it should be good for her peace of mind.) You could even meet her at the school and walk her the whole way if you chose. (You may have to get her a cell phone, or talk with the band director to make sure she can call you after practice if necessary.)

If you still have doubts about the seriousness of this, do a google search on “Walking alone safety.” You’ll see that almost every college has tips posted for its students about this. It IS a very real issue. Feel fortunate that your daughter has good safety instincts, and is not going into the world oblivious to possible danger.

43

Isn’t that what your daughter is doing? There are many foreseeable dangers in walking her walking home at night. The reasonable precautions available to a 14 year old girl are getting a ride or walking with friends.

She isn’t refusing to be out of the house after dark which would be an unreasonable fear. She is not wanting to walk be herself after dark. This is in the opinion of most women who have posted here a very reasonable fear.

44

Actually, such an awareness - combined with knowledge of how not to present myself as a easy potential victim - is probably the most important thing I learned from my decade-plus of martial arts training. IMO - the ability to avoid confrontations is far more valuable than the ability to prevail should one happen.

I really like your suggestion about having her call as she leaves, and meeting her halfway. The first half of her walk will be right by the school and past a busy, well-lighted intersection with 4-way stops and pedestrian crosswalks.

One thing that makes the chauffeur gig a pain in the ass is showing up to pick up the kid, and then waiting as they run late. Of course, the one time that you count on them running late, they end on time and your kid is waiting alone wondering, “Where were you?!”

But I give the dog a walk before going to bed every night anyway. This would be a “two-fer.”

One of her friends lives about half way. The first week she walked with him. But last week he wasn’t at practice, so she cadged a ride with some friends.

Just out of curiosity, I’m going to see if the local PD will give me stats on recent violent crime in town. I also did a little surfing on rape/assault stats, and seemed like a large percentage (tho certainly, by no means all) were incest and date-rape. So a bare stat on the frequency with which women experience sexual assault is not necessarily informative on the dangers of walking through this area at night.

I encourage that she bike. That way, she could outpace any pursuers on foot, or by staying on sidewalks, avoid evildoers in cars. I think her concern there is traffic safety when crossing streets. I’ll have to discuss that with her.

Another relevant but nondeterminative factor - we are pretty insistent on the benefits of walking and biking, instead of driving. For fitness, environmental, and economic reasons. In our neighborhood, folks drive so many places they could easily walk. Including ridiculously short distances. So that is a factor that plays into our equation.

45

Have you got any information about how your source arrived at this figure, and in particular, how they define “sexual assault”? I ask because I’ve had contact with a number of campus women’s groups with a seriously sloppy approach to statistics on this issue. I would not be surprised if whoever came up with the one-in-three figure included a lot of gray-area cases (mental coercion, impaired consent, perhaps even statutory rape). I’d also wonder how many rape cases really involve a stranger on a dark night – all too often, it’s somebody the victim knows and trusts. Bad things happen, but stranger-rape doesn’t happen as often as most people think. I’m inclined to agree with Dinsdale that women’s lives are more circumscribed by the fear of crime than by crime itself.

That said, it seems both wrong and counterproductive to force the girl to walk home alone if she’s not comfortable doing so. Either way, the decision ought to be her own.

46

Dinsdalep, there’s one other factor which I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread which may be relevant. What’s your daughter’s social situation at school like? If she’s fairly middle-of-the-road, or even if she’s one of the more popular kids in school, there may be a specific group of kids who’ve given her a hard time or who’ve threatened her. Also, in my suburban, upper middle class school district, walking was seen as a sign of poverty, thus an invitation to harrassment. I’m hoping this isn’t the case, but it might be worth asking about.

CJ

47

Pro-walking chick checking in…

I’ve always walked places at night. Yes, you can get attacked if you’re unlucky - but you can get attacked during the day in a lonely place just as easily. If you really take the line that you won’t go places where you could conceivably be attacked you have to limit yourself far, far more than just not walking about after dark. If you’re going to be serious about it, you can never walk anywhere where you can’t see any people about - that’s about 90% of all suburban streets, 24 hours a day, where I live! Nine-o’clock at night isn’t more dangerous than three in the afternoon, it just FEELS more dangerous because everyone is always talking about ‘not going places after dark’.

And it’s - what, half a mile? Ten minutes! She should walk, I think it will teach her something valuable - that you don’t HAVE to be scared even though society SAYS you ought to be scared. She’s going to be getting plenty of messages from the rest of society about all the hundreds of ways she should restrict her movements because she’s a woman, and vulnerable (messages that are often severely distorted to emphasise this ‘vulnerability’ and blank out all information about guys getting attacked). It’s good that you and your wife want to teach her something different.

48

Just a brief note regarding night vs. day. True bad things happen any time of the day or night, but at least in the daytime you can prepare better, be more alert, see trouble coming, and often take diversive action. At night, you can’t easily be prepared. Our eyes are not made for night vision and our hearing is not as acute as an animal’s. It’s much easier to be overtaken in the dark than in the light of day even when alert. Not all attackers introduce themselves to their victims, either.

Maybe she could enroll in a “stranger danger” or self-defense course for women so she could better know how to handle scary situations. I still say a child of 14 has no business being out at night alone.:eek:

49

I’m honestly surprised that any parent would even allow a 14-year-old girl to walk alone at night, let alone insist on it. I’m 28 and I wouldn’t walk down to the convenience store a block away after dark. If I really needed something and my husband was asleep, I would actually drive. Yes, a one-block drive is silly, but it’s simply not worth the risk. In daytime, if something happened while I was walking, someone else might see it and call the police.

One of the key things I learned about women who have been attacked is that often, their instincts warned them that something was “funny” about the guy, but because he “seemed so nice,” they didn’t do anything about it. Your daughter’s instincts are warning her that walking alone at night isn’t safe. Please don’t teach her to suppress her instinct for safety.

My college offered security escorts for walking around campus at night. My company offers the same if you need to get to your car a quarter of a mile away after dark. Why should you offer your child any less?

50

I really like FP’s suggestion of the possibility that "women’s lives are more circumscribed by the fear of crime than by crime itself."

I also like your atitude, Aspidistra.

We work pretty hard at convincing our kids that there are very few gender roles they are beholden to. My daughter in question gets considerable enjoyment out of the fact that she can out arm wrestle most of the boys in her social group - and those who she is unable to beat, she fights to a draw. She’s a tough chick (as well as pretty, graceful, smart, musical, funny, …)

I teach my girls as fact that if a guy tries to intimidate them or assigns them a subservient role due to gender, that guy is wrong, and can freely be told same.

At the same time, I tell them as fact that most men are physically stronger than most women, and that you should not put yourself in a situation where you allow them to hurt you or force you to act other than as you desire.

My advice would be quite different if I were living in Chicago, rather than in whitebread, upper middle class, suburbia. And I acknowledge such differences. Perhaps there is a reason escorts are more necessary on college campuses…

In any event, I will be walking the dog to meet her halfway tonight. We talked about it again yesterday, and she said her main concern was traffic - not assault. We discussed light colored clothing, a personal light, or riding her bike.

Thanks for the input. Those of you who think the missus and I are offbase on this, would undoubtably be comforted in the knowledge that we have made countless other errors in raising our kids, and will undoubtedly make countless more. Not, however, due to lack of trying! :wink:

51

I agree with Aspidistra to a point, but…

I think that nighttime is more dangerous than day. Think of the traffic concerns alone, especially if the streets don’t have sidewalks (many suburbs don’t.) It is very difficult to see a lone pedestrian on the side of the road, and if there isn’t a lot of general pedestrian traffic, cars aren’t on the lookout for them.

I’m glad you are walking her home, Dinsdale. You can help foster her independence by getting her used to being out after dark with someone she trusts. Being comfortable alone will come later.

Why is band practice letting out so late anyway? I get the feeling that this is a place where not very many kids walk home, or else they would let out during daylight. It may be very difficult to go against the “neighborhood culture” in this regard. I’m sure the school doesn’t expect 14-year-old girls to be walking alone after dark, so they must be expecting parents to pick them up or the students to drive themselves. If there are a lot of other parents like you who would prefer their children to walk, you could ask that band practice be earlier (even an hour would be good this time of year.) Heck, you could ask anyway.

I know someone who was attacked by the man who offered to walk her to her car at night (a friend’s roommate’s boyfriend)–an example of a creep playing upon the fears that creeps like him engender.

52

Oh yeah - and at the risk of excessive cynicism, while businesses might have their own motivations for providing escorts, that would probably not be the sole difference between policy in most places of business and casa Dinsdale policy.

To start a short list, how my kids get to and from activities will unlikely be reflected in my insurance coverage, I will not use my decision for PR purposes, nor is attracting or retaining employees while demanding that they work late hours a significant factor in our household.

Or perhaps I’m mistaken, and providing escorts is just another instance of that business and others doing “the right thing” - costs be damned. Yeah. Right!

53

Maybe you’re right about why companies offer escorts. But did you ever wonder why insurance companies and employees would demand them?

54

An acquaintance of mine had her car taken from her at gunpoint from the parking lot of a Carl’s Jr. during a busy lunch hour in a very white-bread suburb. It’s not paranoid; stuff happens everywhere. If you would walk with her in some less “nice” neighborhood, you should do it where you live.

Walking the dog halfway to meet her seems like a good idea. And I do thing everyone who mentioned that you should not teach your daughter to distrust her instincts were right on. In the end that’s all any of us have when we’re out on the street alone, day or night, our instincts for self-preservation.

Thanks for continuing to read our remarks and not shutting us out even tho you don’t agree with us.

55

Speaking as someone who has first hand knowledge only about living in upper middle class communities (especially the Chicago suburbs), there is no immunity to crime in those areas.

I don’t know that I necessarily believe a 14 year old girl would be that frightened of traffic in a “quiet neighborhood”. There is truly more to that story.

However, though your comments have been very contradictory, I’m sure we’re all glad that you’ve come to a rational conclusion/decision.

Good wishes to you and your daughter:)

56

Let me just chime in with all those urging you not to make your daughter walk home alone in the dark! They’ve all said it better than I probably can.

I’m a woman who has spent lots and lots of time walking around alone in the dark–and those were times and places when my instinct, intuition, and anxiety told me it was OK. There are other times when my “spidey-sense” sent me skittering to the car or the house as fast as possible. Your daughter’s “sensors” are rapid-firing–TRUST THEM! TRUST HER!

May I suggest, as others have, Gavin DeBecker’s “The Gift of Fear” and “Protecting the Gift” Just read the first chapter of the first book.

Your insistence that she walk home alone in the dark is just plain nutty.

57

GrannyJoy - please point out where my views have been “very contradictory.” As far as the “true” nature of my daughter’s concerns, I’m glad to hear that you clearly know more about my daughter than I.

And carlotta - glad you think my well-intentioned and long thought out parenting choice in this matter is “nutty.” Thanks for elevating the tone of discussion.

Cessandra - I’ll let you know as soon as I start making specific lifestyle choices based primarily on insurance companies’ actuarial tables and insuired businesses’ accounting choices - not to mention the other factors I suggested.

58

Please don’t be so defensive.
We are all concerned for the welfare of your daughter and so are you; we aren’t on opposite sides here. I don’t think any of us want your daughter to grow up to be afraid of her shadow – but we also want her to grow up safe!

59

Just how dark is it.

If there are streetlights I don’t see a problem.

My suggestion
Walk with her a few times. When you cross streets tell her what to look for so she can cross safely. She dosen’t drive yet so she probably has little practice at this. I bet after walking home with her a few times She’ll feel much more comfortable doing it by herself.

I personally believe that all the ‘stranger danger’ stuff is blown way out of proportion. If you look at all the pictures on the wall of Wal-Mart you don’t know how many are RUNAWAYS and how many are abducted. Yes there is a lot of press on these happenings but that dosen’t mean that it is happening more frequently. It only means that you are noticing more press stories about it. (the fact that the number of news outlets has grown tremendously in the last 10 years means more news) This type of story gets ratings which are harder to come by because of the greater number of news outlets. So the ‘news’ (like they are just one guy) plays up on fear and horrible stories. If every kid who was safe at home put their picture up at Wal-Mart you might get a better idea of how much ‘danger’ there is.

60

Walked the dog and met the kid about halfway home last night. Wanted to thank all of you for your input, and especially you ** YWalker**. I printed out those safety suggestions you linked to. The kid said they made sense and made her feel more confident. She really liked the idea of running while screaming profanities at the top of her lungs!

Being a supportive dad, when I saw her coming (and was sure she had seen me) I hid behind some bushes and started makeing ghost noises as she approached. She told me I was a moron and I reminded her that that made her a moron’s kid.

I also pointed out that she should run screaming to any house with lights on and pound on the door/windows. I observed that as she passed each such house, she should check to see where the next was - always understand your escape route. Discussed looking ahead to see where anyone COULD be hiding if they wanted to - behind bushes for example - and to realize that escape lay in the other direction. And told her that every time she gets to a street light or an open space, to take a quick look around to see if anyone else is in the area. Discussed crossing the streets, which she acknowledged was more of a problem earlier in the day when there was more traffic - more distracted errand runners and commuters in a hurry.

The walk confirmed my impression that there is no reasonable danger to my kid walking this route at this time. While there is little pedestrian traffic, car traffic is rather regular and the route is adequately lighted. IMO, the benefits in terms of confidence, independence, and exercise FAR outweigh any foreseeable harms. I will expend my efforts trying to protect my kids from the many other dangers I consider far more probable.

Thanks again for all your input.