King hearings under way.

Great Debates
21

Amazing how the liberal mind works.

Liberals were mighty quick to paint Jared Loughner as a representative of the religious right- even though the guy never listened to talk radio, never paid Sarah Palin a moment’s attention, hated religion, and (to the extent he had ANY politics at all) leaned Leftward.

But when Muslims commit murder while screaming “Allahu Akbar,” the liberal reaction is, “That was just an isolated incident, and we mustn’t be hasty in placing blame.”

When a plot was uncovered assassinate the Prime Minister of Canada, the chief of Toronto’s police insists that the conspirators represented “a broad strata” of Canadian society! So, there was a French Canadian housewife, a Cree Indian, a fisherman from Newfoundland and a cowboy from Alberta, right? Nope- just 15 bearded guys named Muhammad. (Real broad strata, huh?)

Apparently, “Allahu akbar” is Arabic for, “I’m just a lone nut, and this has NOTHING to do with Islam.”

Peter King’s hearings may or not produce anything of value, but they prove one thing: an awful lot of people are DETERMINED not so see anything distasteful in modern Islam.

22

Your comparison would only work if, for example, some liberal Democrat in the House set up a hearing to investigate the supposed existence of a widespread conspiracy among conservative Christians to commit terrorist acts and then proceeded to cast a wide net implicating people who had nothing to do with such actions.

This is nothing more than a typical right-wing strategy to have people in a constant state of fear since they’re more likely to vote Republican if they are.

23

What do you believe these hearings can accomplish, astorian? Best case scenario - what is the goal here?

24

The Toronto Chief of Police said nothing of the sort. That quote is from an assistant RCMP Commissioner. Furthermore, the quote is being yanked absurdly out of context; the officer in question, Michael McConnell, was referring to the profesisons and income levels of the suspects (as opposed to the frequently made claim that terrorists tend to be disaffected, unemployed young men who are desperate.) The general view of the Toronto 18 incident, either from law enforcement or anyone else, is that it was an Islamist plot.

So, you got the police force wrong, the rank of the person speaking wrong, incorrectly stated 15 people were arrested, are using the quote out of context, and in any case it’s one quote that any fool who lives here knows isn’t at all representative of what people know and think about the incident. You and are quite brazenly suggesting that “an awful lot of people” want to pretend the plot wasn’t an Islamist one even thought everyone knows it was. If you have any other mispresentations you’d like to present you might as well get them out now.

25

Sorry, that doesn’t make any sense. We must indeed be hasty in placing blame? Uttering the magic words “Allahu Akbar” make all muslims responsible for the actions of a tiny minority?

Aside from this being something of straw man argument, maybe you could help us all out here with a credible cite demonstrating that the murder of others is mandatory behavior, required of adherents to Islam.

And one other: apparently an awful lot of people are DETERMINED to see most or all muslims as scary bogeymen.

26

I’ll take a stab at it. When I first heard about King’s hearings I was dubious at best. However, according to a few articles I read (including on CNN) King is alleging that many in the Muslim community are not cooperating with law enforcement and are dragging their feet on facing extremism. This does not mean that all Muslim Americans are doing this and King is making that clear.

I don’t know if his allegations are true. If it is (big ‘if’, of course) then I think it should be brought to light and discussed. It might be more effective if King did this privately but for all I know he might have done that already.

King comes across as a blow-hard and his past support for the IRA seems hypocritical at best so I won’t be surprised if his hearings are unwarranted or misplaced.

27

King claims that law enforcement is telling him that privately, but refuses to call any of them as witnesses. His claim is also belied by the fact that empirical research show that support among American Muslims for extremism has significantly declined, not risen (and it was miniscule to begin with), that almost half of the potentially violent individuals who have been caught have been turned in by fellow Muslims, and that FBI agents sent in undercover to pose as would-be radicals looking to get in on some terrorist plotting have not found any plots and have found themselves turned in by the people they’re trying to bait.

Even if it were the case that some American Muslims are covering up plots, what would these hearings accomplish? Is Peter King going to uncover any plots or Muslim terrorists? What is the goal here. To examine the attitudes of the Muslim community? He refuses to call any witnesses who are spokespeople for or represnative of the Muslim community. He is posturing that he’s “letting Muslims do the talking,” but he has cherry picked only Muslinms (none of them spokespeople for any Muslim groups or representative of any mainstream Muslim groups) to bash fellow Muslims and smear American Muslims as collectively hiding terrorists. What information is he going to dscover by doing this? If anyone he’s talking to has knowledge of terrorist conspiracies, shouldn’t they be talking to law enforcement instead of Peter King? For that matter, why isn’t somebody dropping a dime on Peter King for his own terrorist support?

28

So King won’t allow any more guests to make opening statements? What reason did he give for that?

29

To the extent that it is true that the Muslim community is dragging its feet etc, I would think that hearings such as this would make the problem worse rather than better. The way to get a group to cooperate with law enforcement is to ensure that they’re included in society to the maximum extent possible, so that they become invested in the wellbeing of the general society. But these hearings are divisive, designed to reinforce the notion that Muslims are Other. They’re precisely the wrong way to address the issue if one is really concerned about it.

30

I don’t think he gave a reason, at least not that I saw. One of the other Congresswomen asked if others on the committee would be allowed to make opening statements, and just curtly said, “no.”

31

The hearings are not intended to discover whether there is any support for terrorists in the U.S., they are intended to deliberately make the false claim that the Muslim community in the U.S. has failed do enough to fight terrorists. King has already assembled a list of people to testify–all of whom are Islam bashers (and none of whom are genuine spokespersons of either American Muslims or Law Enforcement)–whom he expects will testify that Muslims in the U.S. are failing to do their part to notify Law Enforcement of terrorist plots. The hearings will serve no purpose except to demonize American Muslims as traitors.

The reality is that people have already investigated the charges and found them to be seriously in error. King, however, has been stonewalling efforts by other members of the comittee to permit a wider selection of witnesses. He is stacking the deck to present the false picture that he already wants to portray.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/us/politics/08muslim.html?_r=3

The completed study was carried out by Charles Kurzman of the University of North Carolina. (Among the facts that he discovered were that about half of the Muslim terror plots identified in the U.S. were discovered when Muslim families and neighbors reported the behavior of the plotters. He also noted that various police agencies have sent undercover agents provocateur into the Muslim community to see if they could lure any plotters into the open to join them. While none of them succeeded in actually discovering any secret plotters, several of them were reported to the authorities by members of the Musliom communities as exhibiting radical behavior.)

32

Even in jest, (particularly when no one is liable to know whether you are joking), do not call other posters stupid outside The BBQ Pit.

[ /Moderating ]

33

The board seems to have eaten your link. Is this the one you meant? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/us/politics/08muslim.html

34

The sole security expert called was Lee Baca, sheriff of Los Angeles County, who told the committee that evidence from the Muslim community had helped thwart seven of the last 10 planned attacks.

35

I live outside Dearborn Michigan, the largest Muslim community outside the Middle East. We also have the Michigan militia drilling and practicing in the woods. I am afraid of dark people and light people.

36

But aside from the facts and the conclusions he got it pretty much right then?

37

So, your point is that “liberals” were correct to blame the religious right for Jared Loughner?

38

For once, you ask a fair, intelligent and cogent question.

What do I expect? A lot of grandstanding on both sides. Congressional hearings on ANY subject tend to be a waste of time. You’ll note that I questioned myself whether King’s hearings would produce anything of value.

The fact remains, the subject matter is relevant and important. I’d LIKE to see real investigation of the percentages of American Muslims who support (whether publicly or privately) the goals of terrorist organizations like Al Quaeda, and an exploration of the networks through which Islamic terrorist groups recruit American Muslims and seek funding from them.

That’s what I’d like. Is that likely to happen? No- Peter King is probably just grandstanding, and liberals are far too eager to pretend that there’s no such thing as Islamic terrorism.

Since other people brought up the IRA… I’m 100% Irish, and had numerous relatives who were in the original IRA almost 100 years ago. The IRA of the Seventies, of course, was a VERY different organization. That IRA was evil and dangerous, and needed to be stopped. Are you going to tell me a series of Congressional hearings to explore how the IRA raised funds in the USA would not have been worthwhile?

Of COURSE it would have been worthwhile to hold such hearings. And I guarantee that such hearings would NOT have begun with an hour of tearful testimony about heroic Irish-American firefighters who died in the line of duty, or with complaints that these hearings were besmirching the millions of honest, peaceful Irish in this country.

In the same way, the Kefauver Crime Committee would NEVER have spent hours listening to testimony about heroic Italians-Americans who served in World War 2,
or fretted that investigating the Mafia might lead to a backlash against the honest hard-working Italians who have no Mob ties.

Of COURSE the great majority of Irish-Americans are peaceful and decent and have nothing to do with the IRA.

Of COURSE the vast majority of Italian-Americans are decent people who don’t like the Mafia.

And based on my own acquaintances, I’m sure the great majority of American Muslims are decent people who don’t endorse Al Quaeda.

The fact remains, terrorism in Britain WAS a largely Irish phenomenon. Irishmen who hate being reminded of that should quit whining, and make a public stand against the scum who belong to the IRA.

Organized crime in America IS largely run by Italians. Italians shouldn’t whine about unfair perceptions, they should join guys like Rudy Giuliani and poush to put Mafia scumbags behind bars.

And right now, terror here AND abroad is largely driven by Muslims. Muslims should quit crying about unfair stereotypes and start acting to purge the bad guys from their midst. They should stand up and tell the terrorists and terror supporters among them, “You’re dangerous assholes, and we want nothing to do with you.” Instead, they’ve tended to engage in public self-pity, excuse-making, and worrying about an anti-Muslim backlash that never comes.

39

The citizens of Karachi, Jakarta, Dacca and Kula Lampur would would like a few words with you.

40

You don’t think the flap over the “Ground Zero mosque” was anti-Muslim backlash? How about the opposition to a new mosque in Murfreesboro, TN? Or the cabbie who was stabbed because he was Muslim?