[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
If your last statement is the consensus, then that is a shame.QUOTE]
Oh, but in my experience, that is not the consenses, Beaucarnea. I think the days that we felt that way about our selves is changing, and those of us that are on the outside of that, meaning those without kinky hair, really need to see that things are changing.
And really, things have been changed for years now. Like I have been trying to really drum into the collective psyche around here, black people are actually not buying that “all things black are unattractive and inferior” rap anymore.
We love our kinky hair. We know that it is different from nappy hair,
You should definitely keep complimenting curly/kinky hair if you’re sincere. In a lot of cases, people have been told that their hair is ugly so often that they might wonder if the compliment was sarcastic, but telling people that their hair is beautiful does play a part in making those styles more acceptable imo.
Oh, you didn’t come off that way at all! Not at all. I think though that we are worlds apart in experiences. Because, in my youth, in my community, your hair was the ‘good’ hair.
Your hair was considered “that mixed stuff”, which was not considered the same as ‘natural, kinky hair.’
But ‘natural kinky’ hair had value too. And does today, more than ever.
But see, these things are the case for the circles that you’re in, and they do not match the experiences of lots of other blacks with kinky hair. Some of the “we” statements in this post, and the “. Like I have been trying to really drum into the collective psyche around here” sentence are getting under my skin a bit.
Now I’m not asking you to qualify every statement you make with a note that you’re talking about your own experiences, but it does seem a little like you’re trying to speak for blacks with nappy hair as if it were some sort of a huge conglomerate. I believe that things are changing too, but I don’t believe that it’s accuarate to say that blacks as a whole are no longer buying into the “good hair” meme, or that the only people who don’t understand that are blacks with a finer grade of hair.
I have lately been feeling the need to speak out about my experiences. I feel this need sometimes because I think many people believe that blacks are sitting around hating themselves and their hair, and wanting to be something they’re not. This has not been my experience. I want to be sure to get the word out that this is an unfair perception of us…and by us, I must admit my community is small. I rarely leave NYS, and I can’t speak for all blacks in NYS.
But it does kind of raise one of my eyebrows when I see someone with “cork screw curls” saying that most black women have an issue with their natural hair. I just don’t think that is true of most black women I know. I will say, the black-hair-is-inferior propaganda has not been totally beaten. But I will speak for my own experiences when I say many people may be surprised at black men and women’s attitude toward kinky hair.
Thanks. Heck, my Rochesterian cousin’s two year old daughter has a perm (which is negligent imo…I’ve seen adults with scalp burns when they go wrong), so you can find all types in every area.
It is beautiful, it really is. There was a little girl in my Girl Scout troop who looked a bit like you, and sometimes her hair was pulled into pigtails or buns, but when left to its own devices, it would corkscrew in every direction and in curls of different diameters (some very tiny and tight, others loose and, well, corkscrewy.) She always said her hair was “too busy for my head” and I called the days when she wore it natural “happy whackaloon hair days.” I LOVE hair like that.
Yeah, my natural hair is considered that “good hair”. Which makes it even more telling that I was still pressured to straighten it. If it was kinkier, who knows? I may not have even tried to go natural. My fear of the fro might have been too great. I might have been too intimidated by the prospect of dealing with “unruly” hair to consider not straightening it.
I really don’t think our differences in hair texture have anything to do with our experiences being so dissimilar, because that would be counter-intuitive. If anything, me with my less stigmatized curls should be saying that black people have no problem with natural hair. But I’m not saying that.
I don’t get this. First off, I haven’t said “all” or “most”, just “many”. Do you disagree that many black women feel this way? I believe that this attitude is is so prevalent that characterizing the “black people have a problem with their natural kinky hair” attitude as a myth is inaccurate and misleading.
Secondly, what does my hair texture have to do with my experiences in this area? I’m trying to understand why not having very kinky hair disqualifies me from talking about my own observations, just as you have done. We are both black women, traveling in black circles, seeing what other black people do. As far as I’m considered, that makes us equally qualifed to speak about this subject.
Well, actually, I would expect one with “cork screw curls” to have a hard time believing that most black women don’t hate their natural tight kinky hair. Just as some whites have a hard time believing it.
But, in my circles, it is becoming more and more true. My family, friends, cousins, peers, co-workers, and the people in the night clubs…they are very complimentary of my afro. If I showed up at the club with Don King hair, uncombed, and unkempt…maybe not. But when I turn out with my big kinky fro all puffed out and fierce, I get a very good response, and I maintain that not once has a black person put me down for keeping my hair natural.
I think the reason it is important to debunk what I perceive to be misconceptions, is that all Americans, as people, respect a person when that person respects theirself. We must make plain that black people are actually coming to self love and respect, in spite of an all out campaign that we had to overcome against black beauty.
I am not delusional, though. When I see every one on the board disagreeing with me, I can accept it and come to the realization that we have further to go than I thought.
My SO is biracial and has some issues with her hair, so this thread has been fascinating to me. She gets it relaxed every few months and then ironed flat when she’s not wearing it up. She’s been doing this since middle school at least and I’m actually curious to know what her natural hair would look like. We always joke that she only wants me for my Asian hair genes.
Well anyway, carry on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated
Yes! But they aren’t saying kinky hair is bad. They think it is beautiful, though they have wigs, weaves, and whatnot.
Hmmmm. I don’t know if I see a lot of women like this, honestly
Forgive my hopeless coding. I think many women feel the way you say. I would be blind to deny that. But when you say you don’t see a lot of women that don’t have naturals, but find kinky hair beautiful, you make me see that we don’t come at this from the same perspective at all.
Because I do see A LOT of women that have relaxers but really appreciate and compliment natural kinky hair.
I never said you can’t speak on this topic because you don’t have typically black/African kinky hair. Sorry if it seems I was meaning that. I only meant that I think we come at this topic from different perspectives.
And I agree with you that natural hair acceptance is becoming more and more en vogue.
Oh definitely. As I said before, I’m not a fan of psychoanalyzing black people on this board, because all too often I get the impression that a lot of Dopers think blacks are a whole bunch of dejected, socially crippled crazies.
But I disagree running to the other extreme and acting like blacks don’t face issues that other ethnic groups don’t have to deal with, at least to the same extent. Because that would not be honest. It’s important in threads like in Imus’ Pit thread to explain to those who don’t know about this stuff why “nappy-headed” is a racially-charged insult. It’s not the same thing as calling someone ungroomed, you know? It’s deeper than that.
I think we all have to be careful not to come off as wannabe spokespeople for the race. If that means bracketing our views with disclaimers of “in my experience” or “where I’m from”, then so be it. But I’m glad you shared your stories, if anything because it helps show the teeming masses that blacks are not a monolithic group with identical life experiences.
As far as background, I’ve spent most of my life being the black woman (or when I was younger the black girl). My attitudes were influenced by the rare visits with extended family and the people around me, of whom the overwhelming majority weren’t black.
Also, my hair straightened is curlier than you with the face’s is natural.
I know you mean well - but you really have no idea.
Basically everything you said in this post is untrue about my hair. It does not stay out of my face, it does blow into things, it does need to be tucked back or constantly moved, it takes incredible amounts of time to take care of, it’s high maintenance, and yes, even with all the work, it looks like crap. It doesn’t frame my face well. It doesn’t highlight a damn thing. It is pretty much uniformly awful. Just as some straight hair is great looking, and some is not, the same is true for black hair.
Telling me how wonderful natural black hair is really rubs me the wrong way. Again, I know you mean well, but it does.
A. Kinky hair and nappy hair is the same thing.
From my extended family: yes, they were the same thing, and they were both bad. Today, commenting to me that my hair is kinky or nappy is pretty much the equivalent of saying “hey amarinth, you’re really ugly.” Even if that’s how you feel or how you think I look deeply and honestly, it’s hurtful to me. I definitely hear that as an insult.
I’ve also never been much for “reclaiming.”
C. Black women are disparaged by the black community for having kinky natural hair.
This, I definitely saw in college. Strangely, by many of the people who were otherwise in an afrocentric phase. Also, from the extended family: having a lot of hair was not having “good hair” - it needed to be straight to be good.
You know, I love the song I Am Not My Hair, the chorus of which I posted above, but I have to be honest and say I never really “got” it - I understood the basic concept, that a person is more than their appearance, but I don’t think I ever realized that hair=identity is an real issue. Years ago, I read an article in some women’s magazine written by a white woman who had three biracial daughters, and it was all about how much the condition of their hair reflected on them, and by association, on her.
