I distinctly recall Jim Rome talking years ago about how frustrated Kobe was about his lack of marketability, way back when he was perceived as a squeaky-clean goodie-goodie. Later that same year, by coincidence, he wound up in the papers after he raped that woman (allegedly) and overnight the stores couldn’t kep his merchandise on the shelves. I also distinctly recall that the number one demographic for buying his jerseys at that time was women, which absolutely blew my mind. I have little doubt that this mistake won’t affect his endorsements in the least. Apparently the masses like their superstar athletes to be homophobic rapists.
Tangent! Based on the comments I hear over XboxLive playing Modoern Warfare, you’d think 1) gays were allowed in the military, and 2) the most highly skilled elite fighters and gamers are homosexuals. Because when I step on my own dick and empty my magazine into the floor while someone pops me? I hear no comments. But when I score a headshot with a 9mm using iron sights from the other side of the board I get the distinct impression the other player believes I can only have done so by virtue of the powers of homosexuality.
Oh…and Kobe’s nothing more or less than a world-class ass-raping dickhead. Sorry Sampiro, but while all homosexuals may get called “faggot,” not all who get called “faggot” are even believed to be homosexuals.
I’m old enough to have played “smear the queer” and heard the tabs on the back of an oxford shirt called “fag tags”, and I have never heard “faggot” used as a general insult. It always implies - and denigrates - homosexuality.
Now, it’s possible that it may become as general as “bitch” has become, but for now, it’s pretty damn specific. And the only reason that it is any less offensive to nongays than “nigger” is to nonAfrican-Americans is that “nigger” has been taboo at lot longer.
I disagree entirely. I think you’re overlooking one of the most important facets of the homosexual experience in Western culture: throughout most of its history, it was a hidden minority. This is what made the word “faggot” so portable. You could apply it to anyone (almost: see later for more on this) and it would be effective, because you can’t spot a homosexual just by looking at them. The insult is in the suggestion that the recipient is not really straight, but a closeted homosexual. This is something you can’t really do with racial slurs, because a person’s race is usually immediately obvious just by looking at them.
That’s not a bad point, but I don’t think you’ve explored it fully. I agree that the inaccuracy inherent in calling a white person a nigger is evidence that the term is still strongly racially linked. But the term “faggot” is, itself, not a universal insult, either. The term is derogatory slang for a male homosexual - and how often do you hear someone call a woman a faggot? If it were as divorced from its etymological roots as you claim, why does it maintain that gender distinction?
What does this have to do with what I said? In my experience, most people using the word faggot (or fag) do not intend to use it as a homophobic slur; they mean to denigrate someone for doing something they don’t like, or not acting “manly”. I suppose there can be a lot of overlap, but the term is not used in the same manner and context that most racial slurs are. Kobe Bryant clearly was not referencing the ref’s sexuality, he was just using a (sadly) common insult.
I disagree. Maybe this is a generational or cultural thing, but at least anecdotally, I hear the term (faggot) far more as a general insult than as a slur against homosexuals. Even when it is used towards people who happen to be gay, it’s more of a commentary on their perceived effeminacy than their orientation.
How often do you hear a man called cunt, or whore? How often do you hear women called cocksucker, pussy, motherfucker, or a number of other insults? Clearly, certain insults are directed at one gender more than the other. That really doesn’t tell us much. Your larger point about faggot being derogatory slang for a male homosexual is simply not true anymore. It use has evolved to that of just a particularly ugly, yet common insult. Obviously, reasonable people can disagree of that point, but seeing as Bryant said it, without reference to sexual orientation, to a man who is not gay lends some credence to the notion that the connotation of the word has evolved.
The relevance is that you can’t (outside of some very specific exception) imply that someone is secretly black. If they’re black, you can tell just by looking at them. You can, however, imply that someone is secretly gay - indeed, throughout most of history, anyone who was gay, was secretly gay. Thus, calling an ostensibly straight person a faggot is not as inherently ridiculous as calling an ostensibly white person a nigger. That is, in fact, precisely why it’s insulting to call someone a faggot in the first place.
So, you’re now arguing that “faggot” isn’t homophobic even when it is being used to specifically describe gay people? Are there, in your view, any derogatory terms at all for homosexuals?
Then, perhaps you can explain to me why it is, as you say, particularly ugly? If it’s entirely divorced from it’s origins as a slur against homosexuals, why is it any uglier than “asshole” or “dickhead”?
Except that it’s not an evolution, because Bryant used the term in precisely the way it has been used ever since it was first coined as a derogatory term for a homosexual: by applying it to a straight person as a way of questioning their sexuality. That’s both why it’s an insult in the first place, and why the term is offensive beyond the narrow context of it’s intended recipient.
Fair distinction, but you are missing the context of the comment I made. The point is that the term was not used as, nor perceived to be a descriptor; it was used a general insult. Kobe wasn’t trying to imply that the ref was secretly gay, nor that he had any specific orientation, inclination, or proclivity. He was just calling him a name. Your point is only relevant if the term is being used to suggest something personal about the ref.
I am not saying that at all. I am saying that in my experience, the term is used more often as a general insult. When it is used towards people who are (are are assumed to be) gay, it is more a commentary on their perceived effeminacy. When used in that context, it is obviously homophobic. Again, the context was your insistence that it isn’t really a universal insult. My experience leads me to believe that is not true.
I didn’t say it was entirely divorced from its origins, just that a the common usage has shifted from only being a slur against homosexuals to primarily a general insult. It’s particularly ugly because there are people who still use the term to demean, terrorize, and belittle gay people. As a result, its usage, even as a general insult, is far more destructive and caustic.
But most intellectually honest people recognize that he was not trying to question the ref’s sexuality. There is absolutely no evidence that that is the case, nor is there any compelling reason to assume he was.
I agree, it’s unlikely that Kobe Bryant thinks that the ref is literally having sex with other men. That doesn’t make the insult non-homophobic, or his use not a slur against homosexuals. In fact, it is an insult precisely because it is comparing the recipient with homosexuals. Absent that comparison, the statement makes no sense as an insult. And this is how the term has always been used. You keep saying this is a “shift,” but Kobe is using the word the same way it’s been used for over a century now.
You are injecting that coloring into the situation. The fact that he was not referencing sexuality at all when he said it means it’s non-homosexual. He was not comparing the recipient (the ref) with homosexuals. It’s not a comparative statement anymore that cocksucker, son of a bitch, or asshole is (at least in this context). The term may have been used primarily to insinuate things about someone or to imply that the person is gay, but that’s not the case anymore, nor is it what Bryant was doing. Kobe was not using the way people always did. That’s what you seem to be missing.
Alright. So, when Kobe Bryant called the ref a fag, what *did *he mean? Or are you contending that the statement was entirely devoid of any semantic meaning? Was Bryant just barking at the ref like a dog?
“Fag” means something bad, but the something bad is unconnected to the use of “fag” meaning homosexual even though both are used as a pejorative. The problem with this argument is that it pretty much treats the evolution of the word as a coincidence. It isn’t. You can say something is gay or faggy and not mean you think the person is actually gay, but it became a more general insult because it’s a slur against gays. A lot of insults aren’t intended literally, but the terms still grow out of a comparison to something that is seen as undesirable.
Earlier I linked to a short interview with a former NBA player who made the point that faggot is apparently the worst thing someone can think of to call another person, and if you are a gay player, fan, or anyone involved with the sport, you’ve just been reminded, again, that you are the worst thing people can think of to call each other.
This has the effect of teaching yet another generation of kids (as if they didn’t already know) to mind their place and hide who they are, unless they like being faggots. It’s very clear no one wants to be a faggot. It’s one thing to get called a faggot when you aren’t one, it’s another to hear people being called faggots and know they’re talking about you.
I believe he meant that the ref was an asshole, scumbag, etc. Just because asshole refers to a human body part, and scumbag refers to a condom doesn’t mean that an off-handed remark using that verbiage is making reference to it’s original meaning.
The problem is your are intellectualizing this far too much. According to the online etymology dictionary, the term was used to refer to contemptuous women before it was used for homosexuals. Does that make it sexist? If he had called the ref a bitch or a sissy, would you argue that that was sexist or homophobic? If he said the ref gypped him, does he owe the Roma an apology? I’ll be the first to throw Kobe under the bus since I hated him long before this incident, but let’s not pretend his poor choice of words highlights his heretofore hidden animus towards gays.
Also, I don’t agree that the term became a general insult because it was a slur against gays. While it can be argued that its use grew out of a comparison to something undesirable, I think that undesirable trait wasn’t homosexuality, but a deviation from gender norms (eg. not acting like a “real man”, or originally, a proper, wholesome woman). Of course, there is a lot of overlap there, but its an important distinction. It’s the reason you often hear a person who is friendly with a gay person say (jokingly) they are being a fag, or that something is faggy when it deviates too far from what is considered “normal” male behavior. I have heard gay guys say it to one another. Do you honestly think that were implying being gay is bad, or trying to perpetuate negative stereotypes about gays?
Which has nothing to do with Kobe, or this situation. Furthermore, I would tell any gay person that is offended that the context of the comment would lead most people to recognize that the term was not used in reference to gay people anymore that the term son-of-a-bitch is referencing someone’s mother.
Again, don’t think you can/should make that assumption. I suppose reasonable people can disagree on that point though.
That’s how it became a slur on gays, brickbacon. It was an insult directed at women, and was applied to gays to compare them to women. Over time the usage related to women faded away. If it had been decades or centuries since anyone used the word “faggot” to refer to gays, you might have a point. Unfortunately that meaning is very much active.
I don’t really care which one it is. Is there some reason I need to?
The Roma do object to that, actually. But I think there’s at least an argument that the word has been in common usage long enough that it’s taken on a life of its own. “Faggot doesn’t mean gay” seems to have appeared on Thursday.
Read my first post in the thread. I don’t know how Kobe feels about gays. In this context I don’t really care. I’m not calling him a homophobe. I’m say he used a slur on gay people when he was insulting the ref. You’re saying he didn’t mean it literally so it doesn’t count as a slur, and I’m trying to explain that this is ridiculous.
In order to make up for this, I think Kobe has to show true remorse and take up a gay lover for a while
But in all seriousness, I think it was just a heat of the moment thing and it slipped out. Full disclosure though, I’m a huge Lakers fan and Kobe apologist, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just don’t see him as being a homophobe, at least no more than your typical athlete. Yet, I will say that I hate homophobia and think the hugeness of the fine was appropriate given his star power and him being on the Lakers. On talk radio, they mentioned that Kenyon Martin used the same term a few years ago to almost no outcry and no fine. Kevin Garnett did so as well to equally absent punishment
