Kobe Bryant: F*****g Fa****!

[Miller]

@brickbacon

I believe he meant that the ref was an asshole, scumbag, etc. Just because asshole refers to a human body part, and scumbag refers to a condom doesn’t mean that an off-handed remark using that verbiage is making reference to it’s original meaning.

If that’s all it means, why did you previously refer to the term as such a horrible thing? If all it meant, when Kobe used it, was “asshole,” why is it worse than “asshole?”

The problem is your are intellectualizing this far too much. According to the online etymology dictionary, the term was used to refer to contemptuous women before it was used for homosexuals. Does that make it sexist?

Yes, although I’d argue that regardless of any ancient etymology of the word. Homophobia is, ultimately, rooted in sexism.

If he had called the ref a bitch or a sissy, would you argue that that was sexist or homophobic?

Yes, on both accounts, although I don’t consider either term to be nearly as toxic as “faggot,” both insults stem from insulting people for not conforming to gender norms.

If he said the ref gypped him, does he owe the Roma an apology?

Yes, although I’d personally make some allowances for the fact that most people don’t know what the term “gypped” actually means. I don’t think the same excuse can be made for “faggot.”

I’ll be the first to throw Kobe under the bus since I hated him long before this incident, but let’s not pretend his poor choice of words highlights his heretofore hidden animus towards gays.

How do you know, precisely, that Bryant isn’t homophobic? The only evidence I’ve seen one way or the other is his apparent predilection for casually throwing homosexual slurs around. Which I’d consider positive evidence of some degree of homophobia, at the very least. What’s your evidence that he’s not prejudiced towards gays?

Also, I don’t agree that the term became a general insult because it was a slur against gays. While it can be argued that its use grew out of a comparison to something undesirable, I think that undesirable trait wasn’t homosexuality, but a deviation from gender norms (eg. not acting like a “real man”, or originally, a proper, wholesome woman).

This is a bit like arguing that nigger isn’t offensive towards blacks, it’s only offensive towards lazy, criminal blacks. Yeah, faggot refers to an wimpy, effeminate, womanish man. And the primary stereotype of homosexual men is that they’re wimpy, effeminate, and womanish.

Of course, there is a lot of overlap there, but its an important distinction. It’s the reason you often hear a person who is friendly with a gay person say (jokingly) they are being a fag, or that something is faggy when it deviates too far from what is considered “normal” male behavior. I have heard gay guys say it to one another. Do you honestly think that were implying being gay is bad, or trying to perpetuate negative stereotypes about gays?

This is the most asinine thing I’ve read all week. And I’ve spent a portion of this week in a thread where a guy was arguing that the word “faggot” doesn’t really apply to gay people, so that’s saying something.

Which has nothing to do with Kobe, or this situation. Furthermore, I would tell any gay person that is offended that the context of the comment would lead most people to recognize that the term was not used in reference to gay people anymore that the term son-of-a-bitch is referencing someone’s mother.

Can you think of any other slur where this would be true? If I refer to a hasty car repair as a “nigger-rig,” is it clear from context that my comments have nothing to do with race, and no one should be upset by them? I mean, I’m not black, and I’m the one who did the repair, so clearly there’s nothing offensive towards blacks in my use of the term, right? Or how about kike? If I say a guy on Craig’s List was charging fifty bucks for the part I needed to nigger-rig my car, but I kiked him down to thirty five, am I in the clear, because neither of us are Jewish?

Again, don’t think you can/should make that assumption. I suppose reasonable people can disagree on that point though.

It’s not an assumption. For a lot of us, it’s direct life experience.

@YogSothoth

Full disclosure though, I’m a huge Lakers fan and Kobe apologist, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just don’t see him as being a homophobe, at least no more than your typical athlete.

Wow, really setting the bar high there, aren’t you?

[YogSothoth]

@Miller

Wow, really setting the bar high there, aren’t you?

Too much of sports is filled with homophobes. I’m content that for the players and teams I like, they don’t go overboard with the homophobia and just keep it on the back burner and not be more anti-gay than everyone else

[brickbacon]

@Marley23

The problem is that I understand what words mean.

No, the problem is you are imputing conscious thoughts to a off the cuff statement. We both know he wasn’t using it as a slur towards gays, so our quibbling over the word’s history means nothing with regard to how Kobe should be treated.

@Marley23

That’s how it became a slur on gays, brickbacon. It was an insult directed at women, and was applied to gays to compare them to women. Over time the usage related to women faded away. If it had been decades or centuries since anyone used the word “faggot” to refer to gays, you might have a point. Unfortunately that meaning is very much active.

I get that. That’s why I linked to the etymology. Regardless, it’s another reason not to cling to the historical meaning of a word more than the its usage in context.

@Marley23

I don’t really care which one it is. Is there some reason I need to?

Well, if you are going to be consistent in applying your logic, I think you will run into problems with several insults people use.

@Marley23

The Roma do object to that, actually. But I think there’s at least an argument that the word has been in common usage long enough that it’s taken on a life of its own. “Faggot doesn’t mean gay” seems to have appeared on Thursday.

Of course they object, that’s why I used it as an example. If Kobe has used the word gyp as it’s commonly used today, most would recognize that he didn’t mean it as a slight to gypsies even if they (understandably) would rather people not use the word. I can understand their annoyance, but I would not understand others trying to pretend he is a bigot because he used a word that can have a more innocuous connotation. Faggot has obviously had a more recent, and controversial semantic shift, but logic remains the same.

@Marley23

Read my first post in the thread. I don’t know how Kobe feels about gays. In this context I don’t really care. I’m not calling him a homophobe. I’m say he used a slur on gay people when he was insulting the ref. You’re saying he didn’t mean it literally so it doesn’t count as a slur, and I’m trying to explain that this is ridiculous.

Frankly that’s bullshit. You can’t have it both ways. You say he’s using slurs on gays, but can’t own your feelings and say he’s being a homophobe. Sorry, I don’t buy it. I don’t see how you can reconcile your beliefs that he’s using hateful language towards gays, but not homophobia.

@Guinastasia

Kinda like when black people call each other the n-word, eh? :dubious:

Care to point out a few example of Black people jokingly calling each other niggers?

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@brickbacon

Care to point out a few example of Black people jokingly calling each other niggers?

You can’t be serious.

[brickbacon]

@Miller

If that’s all it means, why did you previously refer to the term as such a horrible thing? If all it meant, when Kobe used it, was “asshole,” why is it worse than “asshole?”

Asked and answered.

@Miller

Yes, on both accounts, although I don’t consider either term to be nearly as toxic as “faggot,” both insults stem from insulting people for not conforming to gender norms.

Fair enough. I think you are being far too sensitive.

@Miller

How do you know, precisely, that Bryant isn’t homophobic? The only evidence I’ve seen one way or the other is his apparent predilection for casually throwing homosexual slurs around. Which I’d consider positive evidence of some degree of homophobia, at the very least. What’s your evidence that he’s not prejudiced towards gays?

I think the default should be that someone is not racist, homophobic, bigoted, etc. Your “evidence” is pretty thin for reasons I’ve already outlined. But I think we can both agree that we maybe just see things differently. You seem to argue that calling someone a bitch, sissy, or saying you were gypped is a prima facie evidence of sexist, racist, or bigoted intent and character. I disagree.

@Miller

This is a bit like arguing that nigger isn’t offensive towards blacks, it’s only offensive towards lazy, criminal blacks. Yeah, faggot refers to an wimpy, effeminate, womanish man. And the primary stereotype of homosexual men is that they’re wimpy, effeminate, and womanish.

That’s not really analogous at all given the histories of the two words and their common usage today.

@Miller

This is the most asinine thing I’ve read all week. And I’ve spent a portion of this week in a thread where a guy was arguing that the word “faggot” doesn’t really apply to gay people, so that’s saying something.

Exactly which part do you find asinine? Again, you seem to be arguing that use of the word fag (or faggot) is prima facie evidence of animus towards gays. When gays use it with one another, are they guilty of perpetuating the same stereotypes and ugliness you accuse Kobe Bryant of?

@Miller

Can you think of any other slur where this would be true? If I refer to a hasty car repair as a “nigger-rig,” is it clear from context that my comments have nothing to do with race, and no one should be upset by them?

Did I ever say nobody should be upset by Kobe’s comments? No. All I said was that saying he is using a homosexual slur, or that he is a homophobe is presumptuous. Similarly, if I heard a White person refer to something as nigger-rigged, I would probably be irked, but wouldn’t necessarily assume s/he is a racist. Particularly if they said it in haste out of frustration. Doesn’t mean it’s okay to use that language, but it also doesn’t mean you are telling a generation of black kids (or gays) that they are worthless either. In short, you can hate Kobe all you want for being prick that he seems to be, but don’t make it seem like he is advocating violence or intolerance towards gays because he called a ref a name.

@Miller

It’s not an assumption. For a lot of us, it’s direct life experience.

Perhaps, but for that reason you should recognize that your personal baggage may be coloring your perception of the situation.

@Eyebrows_0f_Doom

You can’t be serious.

I am serious. You realize that nigger and nigga are not the same word, right? That said, show me some example of Black people referring to each other as niggers in a joking manner. I can assure you this is not a common occurrence.

[Hennessy]

The word is nigga and they don’t use it as racism towards each other.

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@brickbacon

I am serious. You realize that nigger and nigga are not the same word, right? That said, show me some example of Black people referring to each other as niggers in a joking manner. I can assure you this is not a common occurrence.

LOL. How about almost every day on the subway? I often hear young black males referring to each other and/or others as “niggeRs.” The R is clearly heard.

[brickbacon]

@Eyebrows_0f_Doom

LOL. How about almost every day on the subway? I often hear young black males referring to each other and/or others as “niggeRs.” The R is clearly heard.

Get your hearing checked.

[Marley23]

@brickbacon

No, the problem is you are imputing conscious thoughts to a off the cuff statement.

That is exactly the opposite of what I am doing. I said in my first post that we don’t know anything about his feelings about gays based on this stupid incident. I’m talking about the word he used. His intent was to insult the ref, end of story, and to insult the ref, he used a word that is a slur on gays. The word has no other meaning in modern English. Your counterargument is that he didn’t literally mean the ref was gay, to which I say - so fucking what? “Faggot” is still an anti-gay slur. For all I know, Kobe gives lots of money to gay rights charities and voted against Prop 8. That’s not the point. The point is that it’s a slur and a disgusting thing to say, and this stuff about not meaning it literally and alternate definitions is bullshit. I’ve heard “gay” used to mean stupid or uncool, but I have absolutely never heard “faggot” used to mean anything other than a homosexual male, usually an effeminate one. That’s what the word means, and it’s intended as an insult, which is why it came to mind when Kobe wanted to insult the ref for making a call he didn’t like.

Regardless, it’s another reason not to cling to the historical meaning of a word more than the its usage in context.

We’re talking about it’s current usage, and what the word is nearly universally-understood to mean. You’re trying to argue something that is pretty ridiculous, which is that because the word is sometimes used in a way that is comparative instead of descriptive, the descriptive meaning is “historical” and doesn’t count anymore.

Of course they object, that’s why I used it as an example. If Kobe has used the word gyp as it’s commonly used today, most would recognize that he didn’t mean it as a slight to gypsies even if they (understandably) would rather people not use the word.

Right. And if we ever get to a point where most people have no idea the word faggot is a slur on gay men, then we can revisit this discussion. I think you’ll be waiting quite a while, though.

[Miller]

@brickbacon

I am serious. You realize that nigger and nigga are not the same word, right? That said, show me some example of Black people referring to each other as niggers in a joking manner. I can assure you this is not a common occurrence.

Aaaand I’m done taking anything you have to say seriously.

[brickbacon]

@Marley23

The word has no other meaning in modern English.

That is clearly not true. Any cursory search in a reputable dictionary will disabuse you of this notion.

@Marley23

Your counterargument is that he didn’t literally mean the ref was gay, to which I say - so fucking what? “Faggot” is still an anti-gay slur.

That’s fine. I disagree. I guess there is no point in going back and forth on the matter then. I respect your position, but I think you are wrong.

@Marley23

I’ve heard “gay” used to mean stupid or uncool, but I have absolutely never heard “faggot” used to mean anything other than a homosexual male, usually an effeminate one. That’s what the word means, and it’s intended as an insult, which is why it came to mind when Kobe wanted to insult the ref for making a call he didn’t like.

Really? You have never heard the word faggot used to mean anything other than a homosexual male? I find that hard to believe.

@Marley23

We’re talking about it’s current usage, and what the word is nearly universally-understood to mean. You’re trying to argue something that is pretty ridiculous, which is that because the word is sometimes used in a way that is comparative instead of descriptive, the descriptive meaning is “historical” and doesn’t count anymore.

No, I am saying context matters. Clearly, the context here leads most to believe that he is not a homophobe, nor that he was using the word as a homophobic slur.

@Miller

Aaaand I’m done taking anything you have to say seriously.

Glad to see you are content with being ignorant. But feel free to quote any prominent, respected linguists or sociologists that don’t differentiate between nigger and nigga in both usage and meaning.

[Marley23]

@brickbacon

Really? You have never heard the word faggot used to mean anything other than a homosexual male? I find that hard to believe.

Excepting the ‘bundle of sticks’ definition for obvious reasons, no, I have absolutely never heard it used that way. It’s always either used to call someone a gay man, or to compare someone to a gay man in terms of undesirable qualities like effeminate-ness or weakness.

Clearly, the context here leads most to believe that he is not a homophobe, nor that he was using the word as a homophobic slur.

The word is a homophobic slur, and that’s why he used it as an insult. I’m not seeing any “that’s not how he used it.” You agree “faggot” is an insult, right? If so, why is it an insult?
You seem to have concocted some category where if you call someone a word - like faggot or blind or retarded - and don’t mean to literally say the person is gay or blind or has a learning disability - then you didn’t mean it and it doesn’t count. That’s not how the rest of us use language. The rest of us, I think, are capable of understanding the idea of concepts, comparisons, and metaphors. And if you get that concept then you should be able to understand that gays are not going to be happy about being used as a slur intended to challenge the someone’s masculinity.

[brickbacon]

@Marley23

Excepting the ‘bundle of sticks’ definition for obvious reasons, no, I have absolutely never heard it used that way. It’s always either used to call someone a gay man, or to compare someone to a gay man in terms of undesirable qualities like effeminate-ness or weakness.

Or just to say someone is being effeminate or weak in general. Or just as a insult the way a number of other insults are used. Either way, how can you say you have never heard it used that way when Kobe Bryant was, by the accounts of most fair observers, not using it in the manner you suggested? Do you think he was honestly comparing the ref to a gay man, or insinuating he was effeminate?

@Marley23

The word is a homophobic slur, and that’s why he used it as an insult. I’m not seeing any “that’s not how he used it.” You agree “faggot” is an insult, right? If so, why is it an insult?

We have gone over this several times already.

@Marley23

You seem to have concocted some category where if you call someone a word - like faggot or blind or retarded - and don’t mean to literally say the person is gay or blind or has a learning disability - then you didn’t mean it and it doesn’t count.

What do you mean “doesn’t count”? Count how? If someone calls something retarded, they are often not referencing mental disabled people, even if that is one definition of the term. To say that using the word means you are disparaging mentally handicapped people is the type of oversensitivity I am talking about. Choosing to interpret something in the worst possible light is your right, but it’s not a duty. Particularly if past behavior and context lead one to believe there is a more innocuous explanation.

@Marley23

That’s not how the rest of us use language. The rest of us, I think, are capable of understanding the idea of concepts, comparisons, and metaphors. And if you get that concept then you should be able to understand that gays are not going to be happy about being used as a slur intended to challenge the someone’s masculinity.

Actually, that’s not how most people use language. Most people recognize that words have many definitions and usages, and that context is useful in differentiating between them. Additionally, I never argued that gays should be happy to hear the term used, or that they shouldn’t be offended. My point is Kobe’s use of the word was not intended to be a homophobic slur, nor does it mean he’s a homophobe. Making it seem like a basketball player’s semi-public use of a word is gonna make gay children hate themselves is taking things far, far too seriously.

[Guinastasia]

So wait – if a white player had called the ref a “nigga”, would that then not be racist, just your average insult?

[gurujulp]

@brickbacon

Get your hearing checked.

I can tell you that such behavior is common in the bay area. The ‘R’ is quite pronounced, even to the extent of several syllables… NIG-GGGG-GGERRR.

Sucks to be around it, but here we all are.

@Guinastasia

So wait – if a white player had called the ref a “nigga”, would that then not be racist, just your average insult?

Lol.

What if Kobe had called a/the (didn’t see it) white ref a nigga?