I’m not at all sure what Miss Manners has to say about the etiquette of swiping smartass replies out from under subsequent posters’ noses, but yours was definitely a more complete answer to a vexing question!
To elaborate upon this - since I have this volume - the question is in the business etiquette section, and is on whether or not it is appropriate for a man to compliment a woman on her dress or jewelry, with the concern that it might be considered harassing. Miss Manners’ response is that a stranger doing this is fairly insulting, as is diverting the topic of a business meeting to compliment a female colleague, but it’s fine to say this to someone you have a social relationship with, and in a more informal setting.
And since I hit submit too quickly - note that she says nothing about being required to be introduced to a man before she can acknowledge him (and I’m sure she would find that rude).
Not just emergencies. I find it difficult to imagine that Miss Manners intended female drill sergeants in the military to wait patiently to be politely and properly introduced to each of their male recruits before telling them to drop and give her 50 pushups like the filthy no-good maggots they are.
isn’t part of this problem the dreaded double standard?
especially saying that you know that a guy isn’t looking at your necklace. well, he might be, he might not be. the necklace might have got in the way if he was looking at your boobs, and he mighthave realized it is a nice necklace. in that case, then yes, he did look at your necklace. in that case, the necklace compliment should mean MORE because it took the attention away from your boobs. then again, are you wearing a shirt that you’d consider “sexy” or that might show some cleavage? a lot of girls get looked at because they WANT to get looked at…i’m not necessarily saying that you are, i’m just throwing it out there for conversation.
see, these are reasons i say that any girl can go out and get laid…a point i was toasted for on a previous thread. girls can afford to be choosy, guys have to downgrade their choosiness on the list of importance when compared to the female list. this is precisely the reason i usually don’t make the first move on a girl. they get tons of offers from “wanna go out?” to “wanna fuck?” and everywhere in between. it means much more if a girl actually says something to you, or if the girl immediately reciprocates your advances in an immediately positive manner.
ladies, or gents, run with it as you wish and i’ll comment on it (provided i remember that i posted in this thread)
Thank you! That was resourceful of you and it was exactly the quote I meant.
Miss Manners is a bit old-fashioned!
The consensus I’ve always gotten from my female friends is:
Sure depnding on the context and the situation; A compliment on a woman’s beauty is fine. But Og-dammit! You better have MORE to offer to the convesation than just that!
Well, she was talking to a 15-year-old girl who’s being addressed on the street by strange men, mind you. I don’t think strange men should be complimenting teenage girls on their looks, generally speaking.
I can’t find where in there she claims that a lady would never speak to a strange man unless properly introduced - is that in there somewhere?
As far as the letter on Page 309, she says:
“What can be an insult - although it may be owrded the same way as a genuine compliment - is the implication that a lady in a business situation exists for your aesthetic pleasure. Complimenting the appearance of a lady you do not know (for example, saying something on the street) is such an insult . . . A gentlemen need only ask himself in what circumstances he would be pleased, and when disconcerted, to be told, ‘I love your suit.’”
So, she does say it’s an insult in a sense, which I interpret (based not only on that letter but on everything she has ever written about “manners”) as the insult being that the complimenter is making a presumption about the function of the woman he is complimenting, namely, that her dress/hair/whatever is more important than her words and actions at the meeting; or that it is more important for him to possibly make the woman on the street, whom he doesn’t know at all and who has no idea that he is a nice normal merely friendly man, feel uncomfortable than it is for him to keep his thoughts about her personal appearance to himself.
I do disagree that MM is old-fashioned. I find her ideas very contemporary and timeless. I suppose we understand her differently.
Speaking as the weird, unkempt guy, who is muttering to himself, and may be wearing a clown jacket while riding the bus, I’m harmless. I’m not going to be smelling anybody’s hair until they’ve given implied consent, and not feeling them up, or masturbating in their presence until they’ve given explicit consent. I don’t know what Miss Manners says, but I think it’s rude to touch somebody’s mammary glands without their permission.
Mom is an antique collector/dealer from a long line of the same. As a boy, I often spent time going through mom’s jewelry box. I spent four years dating a woman with a serious addiction to jewelery. If I say that I’m looking at your necklace, I probably am. If you don’t believe me, I can follow up with “Is that moonstone or milkglass?” “Butterscotch or royal?” “Is that marcasite?”
Msmith537 Manners here…
A guy going up to a strange woman and complementing her is impolite. Which is to say, it usually comes across as a creepy attempt to pick her up.
For women, excessive touching (hugging, hanging on the shoulder, touching of the arm, etc) is impolite because these are interpreted as signs of interest…sexually. It is even more impolite if the guys spouse or SO is there. Usually one hello hug is sufficient.
I’m one of those miserable people who doesn’t appreciate compliments in a lot of settings and that’s a better explanation than I could come up with. Complimenting someone you don’t really know means you’ve assessed their appearance and something’s met your approval, and presuming that they’re interested in your opinion on it.
I tend to get “you have a nice smile” a lot because I’m not really a smiley person and a lot of times when I hear that I really feel like it means, “you ought to smile at me more.” But I’ve noticed that the men I like best, when I smile at them, they just smile back and it’s enough. And all the best smiling men I know, I just like to sit and smile back and forth. It doesn’t enter my head to tell them their smile is lovely. There’s something underneath the whole thing which is that I am smiling at someone because they please me, not because I’m trying to please them.
All in all, I always have the best rapport with the people who approach me with more respectful distance. So naturally I try to approach people that way too. After we know each other, then we can start telling each other how good looking we are.
I agree that Miss Manners is smart. I think she knows what it’s all about.
After reviewing this thread I think Miss Manners and the like thinking is derogatory towards men.
Give me a break already, Just because I touch or compliment a woman means (or implies) I want to F’ her?
Talk about narrow minded.
The trick is to not sit next to the guy with a tea cosy on their head! But yes, I can see why that might make you a tad wary.
Re-reading this thread, it seems to me that people are projecting their best/worst encounters with strangers onto their interpretation of the OP. There’s context and judgement calls in every situation. For example, I may attempt to strike up a conversation with someone on a bus, but a compliment on their person isn’t likely to be the first thing out of my mouth - I think that’s a bit presumptuous. (Unless they’re wearing something deserving of such a comment, like a Calvin and Hobbes T-shirt, or doing something interestingly different, like carving a piece of wood with a swiss army knife.)
OTOH, I think men should be able to attempt to initiate a conversation with a woman without hostility being the default response.
I think it is somewhat sad that so many people have the default position to recoil over something as innocuous as a compliment. Some in this thread don’t even think it acceptable to strike up a conversation with someone you happen to meet in passing.
Sad, but not too surprising I guess.
Used to be you could see a baby in a stroller, and maybe it is a cute little baby and you want to do a little peek-a-boo or nose tickle. GET AWAY FROM MY BABY!!!
I love baseball. I think one of the greatest things is to see kids playing Little League. Or even soccer. I don’t have kids, but sometimes I have stopped a walk for a few minutes to watch the kids play (which usually involves looking through a chain fence). WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT, PERV?!!
People are so conditioned to assume the worst that even a “hey I like that hat” is now treated as verbal rape. (“OMG! Why is he talking to me? Oh god please let me have my mace handy!”) Or at best as some sort of backhanded slap (“He complimented my hat! He must think my hair is awful. What a rude man to insult my hair like that.”)
Look, I’m a normal married guy. If I compliment you I’m not looking to hook up or drag you into the alley. If I make some small talk in the grocery store it’s not because I have some weird crush and am going follow you out to your car.
So, yeah, keep on assuming the worst. Stick those MP3/IPOD things in your ears. And for god’s sake whatever you do, don’t make eye contact with anyone.
(I’ve gotten compliments over my smile. I have a closet full of ties and many many times I’ve received unsolicited compliments on them. I’ve yet to be traumatized by this)
My husband makes a conscious effort to avoid situations where he’d be alone with a female child (boys, too…but female mostly) precisely because of this. It’s very sad that our society has projected the crimes of a few onto the rest of the world.
I’ve been sexually harassed everywhere from the gas station to my own apartment building. Trust me, it gets old. It’s hard to distinguish that occasional “innocuous” compliment from the creepy comments I get, best to treat them all with indifference.
Miss Manners does not say that. Maybe other people do; but she doesn’t.
You don’t really go up to women you don’t know, or who you don’t know VERY well, and touch them, do you? :eek:
I think there is something of a gender difference on this. Men do get harassesd, assaulted and raped, but not at the frequency women do. Yes, the chance of any of these may not be absolute, but it exists, and more so for women.
And I agree with Miss Manners when it comes to a business situation. I don’t want to be judged for my appearance, except in the very general sense that what I am wearing is appropriate for the workplace. It is considered harassment here to compliment someone on their appearance (even if you have a relationship with them where you think it’s OK, there also may be others around who are uncomfortable with it.)
Think of it not so much as walking on eggshells, but as deferring to the most sensitive person in an effort not to hurt anyone. (I’m struggling with this at work now because most people around here use language I don’t find acceptable in the workplace; do I ask them to defer to me as the most sensitive person or do I just buck up and try to get over it??)
Sorry… I didn’t know you skiied… 
Just for the record, if someone tells me that Miss Manners says this or that, I really don’t care. Miss Manners is just a person who has an opinion. That opinion has no influence on me.