Do you offer modifications of that statement according to what Miss Manners actually described – specifically, that a male should not do that to a female in a business situation?
The point of etiquette as you have stated it is not customary in the South.
Does Miss Manners really use the terms “ladies”? I would find that a little rude and certainly dated. I was under the impression that she wrote books for average people and not for the prim or unusually refined.
I don’t understand what you’re asking: no, I don’t want to modify my statement, and it doesn’t go against what Miss Manners said about making comments about others’ appearance in a businss situation. Maybe I’m confused about your question.
And, it could be that it’s not customary in the South, now, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a longstanding point of etiquette. I didn’t make it up myself.
missbunny, my apologies for not stating my point more clearly. You originally said that it is a long-standing point of etiquette not to comment on people’s personal appearance. That is rather inclusive of all sexes in all situations. Miss Manners doesn’t go that far. She is more specific in that she cautions only against a man commenting about a woman’s appearance in a business situation.
My question to you is, do you think that it is inappropriate to compliment one of your friends on a becoming new haircut when you meet her for lunch? (This is an example.)
I am rather “longstanding” myself. I can assure you that in the sixty-something years that I have lived and taught in the South, it has never been considered impolite for one woman to compliment another on her appearance in a social situation.
It should never be too personal, of course, or too loud.
I ask because I am curious about what would offend people in other parts of the country. I would agree with what Miss Manners said, but I wonder if most people were brought up with the impression that no one should compliment anyone on her or his appearance regardless of the occasion.
Perhaps I misunderstood you.
I’m off to see if I can find a website for her to see if she is truly so out of touch with what would offend the sensibilities of so many women these days. She is usually much more attuned.
It is offensive to some women when they were brought up to be “ladies” and being a “lady” meant being quiet, submissive, and domestic. For some of your elders, “lady” has to do with much more than gender. It has to do with what someone else thinks is “appropriate” for your life.
BTW, Miss Manners does have “ladies” listed in her index in a recent publication. She uses it several times, but I don’t know what the context is. She is really a very savvy woman, so I won’t send her straight to hell yet. She also uses “gentle-woman” which doesn’t hold quite so many bad memories for me.
I’m not completely opposed to being kind and considerate of others. And I celebrate the freedom of folks to use any word they want to to describe me as long as it’s what they honestly believe. I don’t like it when they lie, but I guess they have a right to do even that. But I also celebrate my right to say that I personally don’t like “lady” because inside my head it restricts and confines.
So I’m not policing language. Just speaking up in hope that others with catch on and submit to my will.
It can be. To some people words like ‘a lady’ or ‘a proper lady’ are connected to a feminine ideal who never speaks out of turn, questions any male authority, is always clean and presentable, does not engage in sports, does not know anything about car, doesn’t know anything about finances, etc. Put aside images of Arwen and Eowyn, and think of June Cleaver.
Part of it’s just a class thing too, isn’t it? Any man can, and probably should be, a gentleman, regardless of how much money he makes or who he associates with, but a lady is high class. Americans seem to like to cling to their “middle class roots” and bristle at being referred to as belonging to the high class or upper class.
I dislike the term gentleman. IMHO It expresses a degree of chivalry (based on treating ladies like delicate flowers, opening doors, pulling out chairs etc), compliance with a many rules I consider to be archaic, and a sense of personal honor. We’ve had threads about honor before, I think it’s incredibly stupid.
She only cautions it in that limited fashion in the brief parts of one or two letters quoted in this thread. Her entire take on the subject, based on her advice from a wide variety of situations, is:
It is not acceptable for anyone to make comments on anyone else’s personal appearance in a business situation. This goes for men complimenting women, women complimenting men, men to men, and men to women. Compliments detract from the business at hand, and are easily misconstrued, particularly when the two parties are not of equal rank.
It is never appropriate for strangers to make comments about someone’s personal appearance. (However, “strangers” can, if both parties agree, become “acquaintances” within mere seconds of meeting. Miss Manners is not ignorant of how people meet, and in fact, professes puzzlement at people who go to social events and then spend the whole evening talking to their spouses, when they should be mingling with the “strangers” at the party.) The problem is that the stranger making the comment has no idea if the other person will be receptive, scared, uncomfortable, etc. So he/she should probably not make random personal comments at all. What is more important: for him to profess delight at the beauty of the eyes of the lady next to him on the bus; or for him to keep his mouth shut and avoid possibly creeping her out? Anyway, the lady is probably is aware of what her own eyes look like and doesn’t need to hear it from some random bus-rider.)
Depending on the relationship of the people involved, it is often not a good idea for acquaintances to make comments on other people’s personal appearance because by saying, “My, that’s a great dress you have on today,” it implies that her dress on other days is not as great. Thus, caution should be taken when complimenting people you know, so that you don’t inadvertently cause them to feel bad, or lacking in taste or style, on the days on which you do not compliment them.
I don’t think it’s usually inappropriate, and Miss Manners doesn’t really think so either. She says it depends on the people and situation. Strangers and work colleagues do not fall into the same category as friends. I bet I can think of a few situations in which even to compliment your friends it would be impolite, though. So care should be taken even then.
Regarding it being a long-standing point of etiquette not to comment on people’s things: this is a rule from back in the day when people did not buy new things but rather inherited them from relatives. Complimenting their “new” silver or dining set was puzzling, because one, they didn’t choose it; and two, they got it due to the circumstance of a relative dying and willing it to them. So complimenting them on “getting” the “new” item, whatever it was, made no sense. They didn’t choose it themselves. You should really have been complimenting Old Aunt Bee or whoever it came from. Miss Manners admits that she is one of the two or three people on earth who are aware of this rule; and she understands that in these modern times, failing to compliment someone about their newly remodeled house or the dinner they spent 8 hours slaving away to make would be unwise.
“You don’t have to have pity sex with me. I know I’m hideous.”
“Hideous? You’re gorgeous!”
“You’re sweet. But, you don’t have to lie to spare my feelings.”
“No, really, you’re gorgeous. I want to video tape this so I have proof I was actually with such a beautiful woman. I want to have this condom bronzed and keep it on the mantle as a trophy of such a great accomplishment.”