lamenting my poly-ness

PussyCow:
no need for apologies; you weren’t offensive. I have a reputation for being an occasional decepticon; that is to say, I value peace over truth in circumstances and will act accordingly where I think it’s appropriate… however, I would not deceive either of them in the slightest, about anything, ever. But seeing as that’s not what you were proposing I’ll stop with the tangent-ing… thanks for your input, and your kind wishes. =)

Well, I’m their exclusive lover, and they, collectively, are mine… that is, they expect me not to pursue/sleep with other people, and I expect the same of them. I love them, and I like spending time with them, and I treat them as such… I guess that’s my “role.” Sleeping with him when she’s not here is part of that, yeah, because if I’m in the physical presence of either of them, I want to be intimate with them and they want the same.

Update:
We’ve talked the past few days and I think the conclusion we’ve come to is that if he wants the threesome to continue, he can’t exercise complete free will on how much time he wants alone with her. Either he’ll have to ask her, or she’ll tell him ahead of time when it’s ok, but it won’t be ALL the time. At first he pretty much wanted what he asked for or nothing, saying if he couldn’t have her each & every time he felt like it then she & I could just have free reign the entire week and he’d probably withdraw anytime he thought we wanted each other, but now I think we’ve convinced him that we want him to be involved (it’s a threesome!! that’s half the fun… or at least a third of it!!), so he’s going to try. I don’t know what happens after she leaves, but I think (hope) this works for everyone for the time being.

So, what you’re saying is that you’re in love with them, but they’re not in love with you. At least, he isn’t and he doesn’t really want her to be. And this situation is good and healthy and fair for you how, exactly?

Nono, they’re both in love with me too… actually they came to me and told me that independently, before I ever said anything of the sort. It’s odd that you’d say he isn’t, though, just from reading about it…she’s said she doesn’t really think he is, either. He’s very very sweet to me, he likes spending time with me, and he tells me he loves me… no, he’s not all starry-eyed over me like he is with his girlfriend, but I can’t say that means he’s not in love with me by his own standards. As for the last part, he’s said before that it’s ok that she’s in love with me, as long as it’s not ‘without restraint’, and by that I think he means as long as she’s ok with it ending if he wants/needs it to, and I’m not necessary to her love life happiness.

Heh… well, I’m not sure it’s healthy, but it must be fair, because the only way it could be unfair for me is if they fail to let me know what’s expected of me/what’s appropriate so I can always be informed enough to know whether I still want to be involved. I’m not an equal partner, so I don’t get to say “this is the way things have to be for me to feel like I’m getting what I deserve”… they tell me how they need things to be for their relationship to be ok, and I decide whether I can deal with that, and that’s fine with me. As for good, well, I suppose it depends on your definition. It sure feels good when things are going smoothly. Is it good for me? shrugs I know I’ve grown quite a bit as a person because of it, and learned a lot about sex and love and what I’m made of… I’ve also been angry, sad, and uncertain at times because of it. I don’t think there’s really a fundamental “good” or “bad” to the situation; in the end I think it’s what one makes of it that determines its “goodness.”

In other words, he loves you, but he’s not in love with you, and he doesn’t want her to be in love with you either. Being in love with someone means they’re essential to your happiness. He’s okay with her loving you, but not with her being in love with you. He wants you to be devoted, but disposable.

Okay, so let me make sure I’m reading this right: You are not “allowed” to tell them what you need to be happy, because you’re not an equal partner in this arrangement. You love them and they claim to love you, but they don’t take your wants and needs and happiness into consideration. They don’t want you to go, but they’re not making any effort to make things better for you if you stay.

I said it before, and I’ll say it again: They are not in love with you. They’re taking advantage of your love for them, so that they can have everything they want with no compromises and you’re left to pick up whatever crumbs are left over. You deserve better than that. You deserve to be more than an afterthought in your own love life. You deserve to be with someone (or multiple someones) who give a shit about your needs and desires being met. You deserve love and consideration and respect and devotion, not to be treated like the vibrator they bought to use together.

It sounds goofy. As others have said, he’s not poly. He seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. If I can be crude:

He wants to fuck you when she’s not here. He wants to fuck her when she’s here. He wants to fuck the both of you together in a threesome when she’s here (provided it’s only a little of the time she’s here; he wants to fuck her the majority of the time). It doesn’t sound like he wants her to fuck you when she’s here. When she leaves again, he’ll then want to fuck you again.

Yeah, that’s not right. He sounds like a horny guy who’s insecure and thinks his woman will leave him. He’ll do the threesome, 'cuz he’s horny, and then he can keep an eye on her, but he won’t let the two of you alone together. And when she’s gone, he gets to continue to have sex with you again, without any repercussions or guilt (because she seems like she’s poly, as well). He doesn’t have any trust, here. In my opinion, it seems like he’s fallen into the stereotypical hetero man’s dream (sex whenever he wants, even threesomes!), but he’s still afraid that the woman he really loves will leave him for another.

Such is my take on the situation - as CCL said, he likes you as a friend, maybe even cares about you as a friend (and probably really likes the benefits), but he doesn’t love you.

Other than that, I got nothing - only you can know what’s right, but there’s a stranger’s take on it that might help your thinking. Hopefully I’m selling him short, and he’s a better man than I characterize. Good luck to you.

Above else, do what will make you happy and make things right for you. Although you care for these two, at least one of them doesn’t seem to really care for you. Don’t worry about their feelings - do what makes you healthy.

Hoping you find happiness,
Snicks

I agree. They’ve allowed you to ride along without ever letting you drive. In an equal relationship, you must be allowed to make some of the decisions. It appears to me you’ve become the boy-toy with no real rights. That’s not equal. If you want to pursue a monogamous relationship outside the threesome, I suggest you do. You have your life to think about and you can’t do that if someone else is calling the shots for you. Good luck! It sounds like a sticky situation (pun very much intended!) :wink:

Holy fuck! My eyes just exploded!

That is a very insightful statement. Good is what we can make of it. If you need to leave to feel good about yourself, you will. If staying makes you feel good, then you will stay. Every relationship has times when you deciede to put up with something, because there are other things that make you feel good. When the things that make you feel good are gone then you need to find something else.

It really sounds like he might have some insecurities. I have a poly relationship, and I have learned (and firmly believe) that my sweetheart loves me. She believes that I love her also. We do not fear the other will leave. We are in love and if we love others, so much the better. We know that we each others support and acceptance. It is a matter of belief and trust.

Snickers already posted exactly what I was going to say. This guy doesn’t sound poly, he sounds like he simply likes having someone to sleep with while his girlfriend is away.

That’s not bad in and of itself. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying a relationship which you know isn’t going to go anywhere. I just hope you don’t get hurt, or make choices based on anything other than what is best for you.

hmm. if this is true, then the only people really in love are them, with each other. I wonder… is everyone pretty much in agreement on this? it’s not love if you’d go nuts if you weren’t with them?

…either way I don’t suppose it really changes anything. we weren’t all in love two months ago, and I had no problem with that… in fact things since then haven’t changed procedurally much (if any) at all. whatever the proper term for how we feel about each other, it’s warm and affectionate and positive, and results in us wanting to be together.

following the logic of the previous quote, you’re absolutely correct, and nor is she ok with any such inclinations on his part. if one of them were to ever say they NEED to be involved with me to be happy, well, there goes their couple-ness, and them getting married & having kids someday, so of course he’s not ok with that.

the bottom line is, what he’s not ok with is her feeling more deeply about me than he does, because in his opinion, any deeper than he feels is ‘inappropriate’… that’s as clearly as it’s ever been defined for me, but I speculate that what that means is beyond that point, it’s a threat to their relationship.

I wouldn’t say that’s accurate. they do ask me what I want and how Hypothetical Situation X would make me feel and take those things into account… in fact he is giving up getting what he wants and feels he deserves as her boyfriend because it’s not something I can handle. I’m free to tell them how I feel, just like I told them I’d feel shitty if he spent the entire time with her alone… I just can’t be like “and it should/shouldn’t be that way, because I deserve such&such, and such&such is my right.”

all true, except the boy-toy should be uhhh… some clever female counterpart of that. :wink:
but yeah, I’ve stated that it’s not an equal relationship, and that’s what we all agreed to, and that’s fine. I don’t need or want to ‘drive’, and I think it’d be a bit silly, as I’m not the one who has a future with someone to look out for… an emergency brake is plenty enough control for me.

as for the idea (as put forth by Snickers, Giraffe, and jayjay) that he’s actually not poly… hm, if anything, I think he is, and may not be comfortable with her being. he seems to have no problem expressing his own love & affection for both of us; it’s when she does it that it’s a problem, because he thinks she’s more intense in her expression and thus in emotion. I’m not quite sure what to make of that assertion, because there’s really not much difference in how they treat me, besides that the notion of this ending abruptly seems to bother her more than it does him… he thinks it bothers her a LOT more, but I’m tempted to attribute that mostly to just differences in how guys and girls handle being upset (girls being in general more prone to crying and wringing their hands, guys tending to just clam up and/or try to ignore it). but it’s all good, 'cause I’ve now forgotten completely where I was going with any of that. round of applause for work at 3 in the morning. whee! =P

ZebraShaSha– dammit! how did you… ok, those pictures are NOT TO BE USED for ANY COMMERCIAL PURPOSES… for ANY less than 60% of the profits… grin, snicker :smiley:

dcordell– ahhhhhh, I was wondering when a fellow polyamorist (is that a word…? @_@) would show up. let me ask you: how would you feel and/or handle it if you were in my roommate’s situation? you haven’t seen your sweetheart in two months, and she comes to visit for a week… one morning you wake up and just really feel like snuggling and spending some time with her, so you walk into the living room… and she’s snuggling (or more) with another lover. I ask because he’s indicated that he’s apprehensive of this particular situation coming up, and feeling like he can’t command me to get up and stop touching her because he wants to, and then being unable to prevent himself being upset at being thusly restricted. what’s your take on this? (anyone else can feel free to comment as well, of course.)

Giraffe, you hit on something with the last part of your post (and not by staring and mouth-breathing, either…cackles at old thread :D). I do know it’s not going anywhere, but I enjoy it for what it is. my concern is not that I’m unhappy… there are times when I am, but it’s generally because I’m causing tension between them; my main concern is that by being selfish and enjoying myself I’m going to unwittingly destroy their relationship.

thanks and big hugs to everyone for your suggestions and interpretations thus far… my head feels significantly more sorted than it was when I wrote the OP, and I have y’all to <3 for that. ;j

Uh, what am I, swiss cheese? (and, yes, it’s a word)

OK, by those standards, just about every guy I know is polyamorous. The tricky part of polyamory (as viewed by a monogamist) is not the willingness to sleep with multiple people at the same time. It’s the willingness to have your partners sleep with someone else and not get jealous or possessive.

When you talk to monogamous people, especially guys, about polyamory, they rarely say “I wouldn’t want to sleep with more women”. It’s always “I couldn’t bear to see my girlfriend/wife with another guy.” That’s why I’m skeptical of the guy in this situation – sleeping with both of you and caring about both of you is the easy part, especially when you live in different places.

You can’t take responsibility for something that you have no control over. They get to choose what their relationship with each other entails, just like you get to choose what your relationship with each of them entails. It’s not selfish to only worry about the things that you have control over.

Also, don’t assume that if their relationship ends based on not being able to resolve their feelings about you, you’ll have done them a disservice. Some relationships serve only to teach us so that we may be happier and more wise later on in life. It could be that if they end up breaking up, they’ll both have happier lives than if they stayed together. Or vice versa. You just never know.

Nope, just a polyamorist who did not identify as such in this thread. Why would you assume that nevermore would know?

Well, probably because such a large percentage of the active board members do know and remember that. It’s one of her more defining characteristics as far as an SDMB identity, at least for those of us who don’t know her very well. She’s that transsexual chick in the relationship with lee and, um, whatshisface. (Sorry, Kelly, I can never remember his name or the baby’s. And why haven’t we seen any pictures of the baby lately, huh? Bad lesbian, no cookie. :smiley: )

Yeah…Kelly, Lee, The Other guy, and The Keebler are more like a big ol’ glass of Polyamory with a chaser of “WHOA!”

Alright, I’m crackin’ this bitch back open, ‘cause I am just fit to be tied.

First off let me apologize to KellyM for my ignorance… I’ve been a member for a long time, but I’m here very sporadically, and as a result I tend to forget personal details about individual Dopers… at most it’s like a vague ‘oh, he/she’s cool’ when I see a familiar username. That said, I doubt I’ll forget that particular detail again. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

So, he & I were debating the finer points tonight…
I said before in this thread that he thinks she feels more deeply about me than he does, that she loves me ‘without restraint,’ and inappropriately so. Well, that sentiment pretty much rests on the fact that he knows she’d be ‘in pain’ that it’s over, whereas he would only be ‘upset’ and/or ‘frustrated.’ In his opinion, if she’s in pain, she’s unhappy, and that means she’s not happy/satisfied being with him alone. I don’t see why being distraught over losing your lover means you’re not satisfied with your boyfriend. I was unhappy and in pain when I broke up with my last boyfriend, because I cared about him and there were things that I would miss, but I was satisfied that I was single and free… yet somehow when I put this analogy to him it’s invalid and doesn’t apply.

Someone… help me make sense of this. To me it honestly seems as though he’s got some stake in believing she’s not happy with him, and no matter what either of us say, no matter what evidence he’s offered, it’ll never be sufficient to convince him. But, I’m not looking for people to just agree with me… if anyone sees where he’s coming from, or thinks I’m not presenting enough information to make a judgment, please, enlighten me. The quicker the better. I can feel the beginnings of cranial implosion coming on already…

[P.S.—Giraffe, you kick such ass.]

[P.S.2.—D, if you’re reading this… I’m sorry I had to bring it up again. I don’t know where else to go, and I hope you don’t feel I’ve presented your position as anything other than what it is.]

Where’s he coming from? He’s learning as he goes along and probably making most of it up, as there most likely wasn’t a poly relationship model for you guys as children. When we’re learning, we stumble. And boy, have I stumbled in my own open marriage. I say open because it’s not a group marriage, but my husband and I are open to see other people romantically and sexually.

Basically, as long as consenting adults are involved, your relationships can look like whatever the hell you want them to look like. No one, mono or poly, can tell you what they “should” be like. Yes, triads, quads or more of wholey invested people are one form of polyamoury. But so is a primary couple plus one or more “extracurriculars.” This is the arrangement my husband and I have agreed to. He is my husband, my primary, my most important person in the universe. I am his. (well, wife, primary, etc.) We both enjoy exploring the energy and connections of other people in our spare time, but such relationships should not and do not take time, energy or large sums of money away from our relationship.

I love seeing him flirt with other people. It makes me smile, makes me happy, makes me adore him more because I’m reminded how desireable he is. He really dislikes seeing me being overtly flirtatious with other people. He doesn’t mind that it happens, but he’d rather not see it. He’d rather be primary when we’re together.

Does this mean he isn’t poly? Of course not. He doesn’t mind when I’m with another man. He asks me who I’m seeing, counsels me when there’s trouble, provides a strong shoulder to cry on when I’m upset with something in another relationship, babysits so I can go out on dates and even lets me know when a good show is happening that I might like to see. He’s 110% supportive of me seeing and sleeping with other men. He’s just uncomfortable witnessing physical affection between me and another. No problem, we’ve talked about it, and I’ve decided that this isn’t a deal breaker for me. I just don’t flirt with folks when he’s around.

For obvious reasons, we’ve never had a threesome. :stuck_out_tongue:

And that, of course, is where the similarities between my situation and yours end. Your bf has been sexual with both of you at once, It would be logical to assume that the two of you were physically intimate in his presence then, so logically, it shouldn’t bother his to come into the living room seeing you snugly on the couch.

But when has emotion had shit all to do with logic, EVER?

And of course, this is further complicated by the fact that he’s living with his extracurricular, not his primary. Which is unusual and pretty hard to deal with emotionally, I imagine. I suspect that when she’s not in town, you feel much more like his primary, no? And pine for her at the same time? So being asked to give up your status as lady of the house, being his pseudo-primary and your lovely girlfriend all at once seems a little, well…Cinderella *before * the ball.

There’s two questions here. A. Is the way he is and the way he feels the way he *wants * to feel? That is, is he exploring what’s going on and working through something, or is this it, end of story? B. How do you feel about that?

1A. If he’s going through something, and you feel like helping him work through his process, then by all means do so.
1B. If he’s working through something and you don’t feel like helping, don’t.
2A. If this is the way he wants to feel, he feels totally justified in feeling, and wants to feel forever, and you decide it’s OK with you then by all means stay.
2B. If this is his feelings forever and you’re NOT OK with it, leave!

ahem I suspect 1A or 2B is the case, seeing as you wouldn’t have posted here if you were truly OK with it but didn’t want to help.

You can be not-the-primary without being a victim. I think you’re doing that very well so far, and I wish you strength and love as you search your heart for what’s best for you. :slight_smile:

Oh, and none of the above should be read to mean that he might not be an insecure jerk, BTW. But it sounds to me like his insecurities are with her, with not believing she loves him “enough”*, with not trusting her. These are serious issues, and should be dealt with. But they’re really his issues with her. You’re just a convenient projection screen. And you can choose to be the focus of his projection if you want, but his issues are with her.

*[sarcasm] Does anyone have a link to a site where I can buy a love measuring device? Because I’m having trouble checking my love level. Might need a few more quarts before my next road trip. [/sarcasm]

I saw this movie a couple years ago. I think Jennifer Aniston was the female. She was having one guy’s baby, but was living with the guy who would be the better father, but he didn’t want to marry her, I think. At the end, I believe the living arrangements were still pretty much the same, all the adults were happy, and so was the kid! Gosh, maybe something like this could work out! Anyone know what the movie was?

Where’s he coming from? I think he’s coming from the position of someone who’s not truly poly and doesn’t truly understand polyness on a visceral level. A lot of non-poly and quasi-poly people are like that; we intellectually understand the concept, but we just don’t get poly arrangements in the same way that true poly folks do. (And yes, I think you can be sort-of poly, the same way you can have gay leanings.)

I also think he sees her loving you more than he loves you as detracting from her capacity to love him, as though love were a finite resource and there’s only so much to go around. As long as they love you equally, they have the same amount left to give each other, so they’re “even”. But if she loves you more than he does, she’s going to have less love left for him, and he’s going to be giving more than he’s getting. That, of course, would be unfair and inappropriate, and would make him unhappy. Of course, you know and I know that love ain’t like a jar of cookies, where the more one person eats, the less there is for everyone else. And I think he knows that on an intellectual level. I just don’t think he really knows that deep down in the secret recesses of his heart.

FWIW, hon, I don’t think this issue has shit to do with you. Oh, sure, on top it’s about you, but underneath it’s about her being poly and him not really knowing how to cope with that. The real issue here is what I outlined above. Unless and until he deals with that issue in a way that they can both be happy with, their relationship is in some deep shit. Not because you did anything to their relationship, mind you, but because the people they fundamentally are just won’t be compatible.