“Perhaps you could point to a modern industrial society that has a better record of freedom than the USA. I imagine your pick will be at odds with what other people might pick.”
Let’s see…just about every European country, Scandinavian country, Australia and new Zealand…just off the top of my head. As to the USA’s record…we have McCarthyism, the Civil Rights issue, conscription for the Vietnam War…etc.
But every European country has significant limits on free speech (laws against racism). That is pretty significant.
That’s a good question. In a sense, of course, both statements are true: if someone in Cuba underwrites your trip, you have a general license.
But it’s not very realistic. Cubans are hungry - very hungry - for dollars, in which there is a thriving black market. In fact, it’s not uncommon for physicians, engineers, and other highly-skilled professionals to moonlight as cab drivers, bartenders, and other jobs that bring them in contact with tourists that can tip with dollars; a night of bartending can net a Cuban more than a month’s salary as a physician.
So when Notreamericanos travel to Cuba, frankly the expectation is that they will be able to spend some money. My cousin would be very unlikely to be able to cough up the dough to cover my travel and lodging expenses, and unlikeler still to be happy about doing so for me.
Besides, even if YOUR cousin happened to be wealthy, how often have you travelled anywhere without spending a dime of your own money?
So the ban effectively has a greatly chilling effect on travel, even though, technically, it only prohibits the transfer of money.
This may seem a useless distinction, but it’s not. A free society may not be able to tell you where to travel. But considering the Castro government stole (excuse me… “nationalized”) US industries and investments in the sixties, leaving those US companies and investors with no way to recover the property that was taken from them, the ban on US citizens doing business with Cuba makes a bit more sense.
And North Vietnam killed 57,000 US troops, but the USA is happy to see its tourists flying there.
Well, Rider, Germany killed US troops, as did Japan, and Spain and Mexico as well, for that matter. It’s well-established that past military hostilities are no grounds for future commerce bans.
But the wholesale theft of property, with no eventual recompense or apology, and without a state of war, is a different story.
Rider has already responded naming most other developed western-style nations, so I won’t be on my own.
The reason I don’t get to vote on this (see earlier post) is that I am not an American citizen. I’m British. Now, don’t get me wrong - I live in the US because I prefer to. It’s a great country.
However, if I tally up all the pluses and minuses, I would put in the minus column the fact that I feel less free in the US than in England. I have found this to be a common feeling amongst other ex-pat Brits. It came as quite a surprise at first, given that America proclaims itself to be the “Land of the free”. On a global scale, yes, you are free, but I think a long way from being the most free (going back to the OP), especially if you take into account the “record of freedom” rather than the current state. How many modern industrial societies have a worse record on racial integration? However, you introduced “record”. I’m just talking about how free I feel inthe current US society. Most of the examples I gave in my initial list are areas where the US confers less freedom than the UK. I could add more: curfews, alcohol restrictions (e.g. in parks), smoking restrictions (I don’t smoke, but business owners should have the freedom to decide if they want to allow smoking in their own business place), the war on drugs, homosexual sex is illegal in many states (and I’m not gay either).
amarone, what you are used to makes a big difference. In the UK you have more freedom in some things and less in others. You miss what you were accustomed to. Some American going to teh UK to live might miss not being able to own a gun or not having to pay BBC extortion tax. I know both well and have lived in both and personally prefer the US although I like both.
Minor quibble: there’s no restriction on Canadian Norteamericanos travelling to Cuba.
That’s a good point - there may be freedoms here (in the US) that I’m not used to and therefore don’t really notice. Gun ownership is one - like most Brits, I have no interest in owning a gun (please - nobody turn this into a gun control thread). It might be interesting to get more feedback from Americans living in the UK as to freedoms they found themselves without.
I know there are three states where cock-fighting is still legal, although I find the freedom to be cruel to animals to be of little merit.
In many European countries like Germany, Italy and Switzerland you must perform mandatory military service (sometimes this can be some other service but usually with a longer term.) To my mind that is a pretty huge imposition on personal freedom. Also Europe is not without their own race problems.
Great, you fell into my trap, Rider. You claim that, say, citizens of Germany are more free than citizens of the US. Sure, you could make that case. They are free from having to pay their own medical bills, they are free to enjoy employment security, they are free from having to live near people who aren’t like them, they are free from having people with guns living next to them, they are free to smoke in public places.
But look at it the other way. They are forced to pay taxes to pay everyone else’s medical bills. They are forced to pay huge unemployment taxes. They must accept higher unemployment and lower economic dynamism. They live in a culturally homogenous country. They can’t own guns. They are forced to sit near people who smoke in public places. They must pay taxes to support the local churches, whether they are christians or not. They have a state religion.
My point is that freedom is a trade-off. You may prefer the way they do things in Germany, or you may prefer the way we do things in the US. But to label one as “more free” is really just revealing your personal preferences.
Wasn’t the whole notion of America being a land of “Freedom” basically a slogan from the American Revolutionary War? I.e. the “freedom” that Americans have is merely freedom from British rule?
Going back to the OP’s mention of trade description laws…
Here in New Zealand the Fair Trading Act prohibits any conduct in trade that is misleading or deceptive or likely to mislead or decieve.
Personally (based on the posts above) I think this wording would capture USA Inc trying to use the ‘Land of the Free’ as a marketing slogan in NZ. One could argue captialisaiton of the word ‘Free’ could well lead NZ consumers to believe that the USA is Free in an absolute sense (rather than tracer’s explanantion of ‘Free’ as meaning free from British rule).
It would be a damn interesting case (although I doubt USA Inc would be too concerned about the relatively lenient sanctions that NZ court could impose…)
Hmmm…Someone will certainly know better, but I’m pretty certain nobody is “forced” to support the local churches. German people are “forced” to support a churche only if they’re registered as being members of said church, IIRC. Anyway, they can choose (on their tax form) to support whatever church they want, not “the local church”, and , AFAIK, can choose not to support any church altogether.
And I don’t think there’s a state religion in Germany. I assume you’re mistaking Germany with Sweden (which has, I believe, a state religion), or the UK.
“Great, you fell into my trap, Rider. You claim that, say, citizens of Germany are more free than citizens of the US. Sure, you could make that case.”
Lemur, I said “Just about every European country”, and not specifically Germany. In fact I used this term bearing in mind the fact that you were likely to jump on conscription. That still leaves you with all the countries I mentioned, plus the majority of Europe. I suggest you set your “traps” more carefully in future.
Kiwiboy…thanks for answering my OP.
Apologies, Lemur, it was Gazpacho who jumped on the conscription issue. My mistake.
Rider, could you kindly provide a definition of “freedom,” so that we may actually discuss this issue?
So far, all we’ve got is examples where Americans may not be allowed to do everything they may wish to do, plus the 50 year old example of McCarthyism, the 40 year old example of the Civil Rights movement, and the 30 year old example of conscription.
This leads to people providing counterexamples of limitations on “freedom” in other countries.
And we are no closer to the dispelling of ignorance - all we are getting here is people cloaking their prejudices by pointing to the plethora of examples of bad stuff one country or another does or has done. Hell, we even have the absurdity of Libertarian asserting that the non-democratic society of Hong Kong is more free than the U.S.
So, Rider, unless your goal is a thread completely consisting of “am not free,” “are too free,” establish means by which we can quantify the amount of “freedom” you wish to debate.
Thanks,
Sua
Lemur: say, citizens of Germany […] must accept higher unemployment and lower economic dynamism
Just a nitpick: many of the countries in Rider’s list (Europe inc. Scandinavia, Australia and NZ) actually have lower unemployment than the US. As of this July, all the Scandinavian countries except Finland, plus the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Austria, Portugal, and Ireland, had lower unemployment than the US’s rate of 4.8%; the UK, NZ, Hungary, Slovenia, Australia, Belgium, Germany, Czech Republic, and France were all under 9%.
Consider also that our unemployment rate may appear artificially low because we have so many formerly-unemployed people in jail for nonviolent offenses, e.g., drug-law violations. If our incarceration rate—currently about 6% of the population, skewed heavily toward working-aged people—were under 1.5% as it is in most of Europe, our official unemployment rate would probably be significantly higher.
Well there are other countries like Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, Denmark, Finland and Norway. Which have some form of mandatory military service.
"Rider, could you kindly provide a definition of “freedom,” so that we may actually discuss this issue?
So far, all we’ve got is examples where Americans may not be allowed to do everything they may wish to do, plus the 50 year old example of McCarthyism, the 40 year old example of the Civil Rights movement, and the 30 year old example of conscription."
If you want a definition of freedom, just look in your dictionary to save me typing it out here please, and save the schoolmarm approach. Thanks.
I cited things from 50, 40 and 30 years ago because I was asked about the “record” of countries.
Just as another example, I find the fact that Americans living and working overseas for foreign companies have to pay income tax to Uncle Sam impinges on their freedom. No other country enforces this as far as I am aware.