True. It is also true for the immense majority of the Chinese people. Most of them live their lives and feel no need to do things which their government outlaws. Comparing which country is more free is then meaningless or at least subjective.
If we go by objective measures, like who has higher prison population, then the US is not the most free,
I bet you’d like those stupid licensing laws changed tho…
You really think that? 99% of the political debate in the U.S. consists of various groups complaining about the lack of freedoms.
Using hyperbole and generalization, the Right spends its time bitching that they aren’t free to carry bazookas into supermarkets, that they aren’t free to have government pay for their religious celebrations, and that they aren’t free to shoot doctors who perform abortions.
The Left, in turn, bitches that they aren’t free to shut up everyone who disagrees with them, that they aren’t free from having to work for a living, that Ashcroft is turning the country into the Fourth Reich, and they aren’t free from those damn corporations who have the gall to provide them with goods and services.
Everyone here complains that they aren’t free enough. “Land of the free,” to us, just means that we got it pretty good, is all.
Lemur, thank you for putting into English what I’ve been trying to express. 
Sua
Sua
Speaking as an outsider, I’m astounded (as always) about how much Americans have to say about “rights”, and how little about “obligations”.
As soon as more than one person is involved in any situation, the ideas of “rights” and “freedom” must become disconnected, otherwise you have anarchy instead of society. I posted in another thread a long piece about what we mean by the term citizenship and it seems to me it’s perfectly relevant here as well.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...threadid=148529
Put it this way. In an ordered society, there is a spectrum of relationships along a continuum that goes something like …
Rights <> Needs <> Desires <> Duties <> Obligations
Like ordinary light, normality requires a mix of all of them. If you skew the mix over to one side, then the resulting image will be distorted.
Any “free” society must have a balance between rights and obligations. In this respect, the US comes closest, in my opinion, to the ideal mix. This does not imply perfection, since it obviously is not perfect, but in relation to most of the alternatives that have been proposed in this thread, there is a clear case to be made out for the idea that the USA is the free**-est** modern society.
Very good point, and I cant think of any other countries which has more laws than we do, more regulations and required licenses, or has more things which are against the law. No other people anywhere pay more in taxes than americans. The founding fathers would have revolted long ago against this government - they revolted in 1775 over much less.
Was I WHOOSHED here? Most ( or at least many ) European countries are more heavily taxed and I suspect rather more heavily regulated than the U.S…
Well, in terms of amount of taxes you have a point, the Founding Fathers revolted over some pretty miniscule tax issues IMHO ;). But the situations aren’t really analogous. It was more an issue of re-imposition of remote rule after decades of benign neglect and associated questions of degree of internal autonomy in the colonies.
In regard to my OP, I don’t think that the line goes “Land of the Free, in comparison to other countries, and the Home of the Brave”. Of course, if it did, it would be irrelevant at this point in history. The point is, as I asked originally, does this tagline stand up to scrutiny in itself in a modern United States. Or is it as arbitrary as “Home of the Brave”.
I really don’t think this is true. The US individual tax burden is comparable to much of the EU - it’s very very slightly higher than the UK. And then there’s Sweden…
Or is this a whoosh?
Adressing your driveby posts is a waste of time as you do not respond. At any rate, I am not going to let your misinformnation go unanswered. You can’t think of any countries with more laws than the US? That just shows how little you know. You don’t get around much do you? How many countries can you name which are less regulated than the US? Not many I bet. And of the few someone (not you) might be able to name, I bet you wouldn’t want to live there.
>> No other people anywhere pay more in taxes than americans
This, again just shows the vastness of your ignorance. I am quite sure overall taxation levels are lower in the USA than they are in any other advanced country. You really need to get some facts before you post.
“I am quite sure overall taxation levels are lower in the USA than they are in any other advanced country.”
Can i just ask why you are so sure? Here in Hong Kong, for example, income tax is 16% across the board. Yes, our freedoms are being eroded under China, but I just want to pick you up on the tax issue here if I may.
This argument is exactly what states rights is about. The states were intended to have much more autonomy than what they do now. They were to be individual nations, in a sense, but were united for certain narrow purposes such as defense. Unfortunately, because of slavery, one cannot mention states rights without being labeled a racist.
Joe Elliott
http://members.aol.com/joe4jesus/index.htm
HK is not a country. China does not qualify yet as an “advanced country”. In any case, you could possibly find the exception but on the whole, US taxation levels are lower that they are in Canada or in Europe or Japan where their governments have greater social programs.
Please respond to my questions, and show everyone just WHO has the “vastness of ingnorance” of which you so freely accuse others.
Why are you posting personal attacks?
Why are you calling names?
I will not make a personal attack on you.
I will not call you names.
I will NOT respond to your personal attack with a personal attack, but I will, instead, let YOU show everyone just who is ignorant. (I think that is ok?)
Did you even read my post that YOU responed to ?
Read what I said again, or have someone read it to you:
"No other people anywhere pay more in taxes than americans. "
Now read it again:
"No other people anywhere pay more in taxes than americans. "
Americans pay about $2 TRILLION dollars in federal taxes, hundreds of them, excise, income, cigarette, oil, gasoline, luxury, estate, etc.
In addition to the $ 2 TRILLION dollars in federal taxes, Americans also pay another TRILLION in state and local taxes( http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy1999/guide/guide01.html)
Furthermore, Americans have an accrued tax debt of $6,364,499,389,648.58(also known as the national debt of which the taxes have been defered)http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
Show everyone who has a “vastness of ignorance” by naming those countries which pay more in taxes than Americans, and list the sources.
As far as having more laws than anyone else, please see an attorney. I think you do not have any idea how many state, local, and federal laws and regulations have been passed over the past 200 years, which are stilll in force and on the books. We now have over 20,000 gun laws alone(http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/compendium.htm)and I know people in the gun business, as I am, have a great deal of trouble just trying to comply with this one issue alone, and we are often unsure just what is legal and what is not, thoughout the country.
We have so many laws, nobody in this country knows if they are obeying every law or not. There is no way an average Amercian citizen can be assured that he is not violating a law, there is no way an average american today can consider himself a law abiding citizen, since there are so many laws in our country.
I have no idea what new federal , state, and local laws, and regulations, were passed in the past several months in the states that I will be traveling to. Do YOU?
What other countries pass more laws per week than the United States?
Not only are our laws numerous, but they are long, and compicated. One law alone, the federal income tax law, has so many pages, and is so complicated, that even the members of the House Ways and Means committe( the people who wrote the law) cannot do their own taxes and understand it all.
In addition to all the formal laws in the United States, we also have hundreds of thousands of “regulations” from building codes, to epa, health and welfare, etc, which has the power of law.
Please list those countries with “more laws” passed and currently in force than we now have in the United States, and please give us all the sources.
I do not engage in personal attacks, but I am not going to let YOUR misinformnation go unanswered.
I am asking you the same questions that YOU posed(but without any personal attacks): Please provide answers with souces:
YOU can’t think of any countries with more laws than the US?
Also list those countries with more lawyers that in the Uinted States.
How many countries can YOU name which are more regulations and codes than the US? List them.
What other countries have more required “licenses” than the United States?
I personally think that the founding fathers were taxed quite a bit less than what we now are taxed, and they did not have as many laws and regulations as we do today, and that they would be dumbfounded in the impossiblitiy of trying to live as “law abiding”(obeying every law) citizens.
PLEASE read a post BEFORE you resond to it.
PLEASE refrain from any personal attacks on those of us who post on this board and obey the rules.
You are quite free to disagree, to dispute, to argue, and to counter, but NOT to make personal attacks.
Calling others “ignorant”, saying the posts of others are a “waste of time” , while not even disputing what was said, and accusing people of “Not getting around much”, adds nothing to this discussion. I think your post was entirely a personal attack and with no disputing facts or figures.
Americans pay more in taxes, than on food, clothing and shelter combined(http://premierlender.com/content/dispart.cfm?artno=7&zone=04).
Most people of the world, do NOT.
Oh my goodness. I guess it was better when you didn’t attempt to answer. Ok, I will skip the fluff.
This, of course might be all true and yet it is totally irrelevant because what counts is the tax burden per capita as a percentage of income. The taxes you would pay as an individual if you lived in pretty much any other advanced country would be higher. I can assure you that you would pay higher taxes to any government of any advanced country. Or, name the countries where you believe you would pay lower taxes.
[quote]
As far as having more laws than anyone else, please see an attorney. I think you do not have any idea how many state, local, and federal laws and regulations have been passed over the past 200 years, which are stilll in force and on the books. We now have over 20,000 gun laws alone (http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/compendium.htm)and I know people in the gun business, as I am, have a great deal of trouble just trying to comply with this one issue alone, and we are often unsure just what is legal and what is not, thoughout the country.
We have so many laws, nobody in this country knows if they are obeying every law or not. There is no way an average Amercian citizen can be assured that he is not violating a law, there is no way an average american today can consider himself a law abiding citizen, since there are so many laws in our country.
I have no idea what new federal , state, and local laws, and regulations, were passed in the past several months in the states that I will be traveling to. Do YOU?
What other countries pass more laws per week than the United States?
Not only are our laws numerous, but they are long, and compicated. One law alone, the federal income tax law, has so many pages, and is so complicated, that even the members of the House Ways and Means committe( the people who wrote the law) cannot do their own taxes and understand it all.
In addition to all the formal laws in the United States, we also have hundreds of thousands of “regulations” from building codes, to epa, health and welfare, etc, which has the power of law.
Please list those countries with “more laws” passed and currently in force than we now have in the United States, and please give us all the sources.
[quote]
Europe has all those laws plus the laws stating when you can buy a loaf of bread or a pint of beer or how and when you can open a business and hire or fire employees. Not to mention that the governments intervene in the economy much more. Rent control is rampant and that is when the government does not own the buildings. You see, if the US has been passing laws for 200 years, in Europe they have been doing it for over 1000. It just shows how much you’ve been around.
We are talking in such general terms that it is imposible to compare but I can assure you that almost anything you do in Europe is more complicated. If you like we can compare things but we could go on forever.
Say I want to own a gun. Where will it be more complicated? Europe or the US? No contest.
Say I want to get a driver’s license. Where will it be more complicated? I can tell you that almost everywhere in Europe it will be more complicated and require more red tape.
Say I want sail my boat. Where will I need more permits and papers? I can assure you it is in Europe.
Say I want to buy a house. Where is it more complicated and where will I pay higher taxes? Europe again. See, I know all these things because I have actually done them all on both sides of the Atlantic. We can go in detail into any of these or any other things you’d like. Starting a business is also much more complex in Europe. Hiring, firing are much easier in the US. Tell me exactly what you think is so complex in the IS. I will let you pick a few things and we can discuss them. As I say, I have lived on both sides of the Atlantic and have a fair idea about these things and can look up the rest.
I am not about to spend a lot of time doing a study on comparative taxation by country so if anyone has the data handy I would appreciate a link. This link http://www.oecdobserver.org/images//637.photo.jpg shows direct income and social security taxes and they are generally higher in other countries. Now add the other sources of revenue which are sales taxes which is easily 3 times as much in Europe. A sales tax of 5% in the US would be representative while 17% would be representative in Europe. Gasoline tax, same thing. Buy a house in Europe and you pay much higher taxes and government fees. I have no idea of capital gains taxes, corporate taxes etc.
The figure we would need is the percentage of the Gross Domestic Product of each country which the government takes in as taxes. I don’t have it but maybe someone can provide it?
See http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/12/01/skattoecd_en/tab-2001-12-18-01-en.html
In 2000, the highest taxation is in Sweden, at 53% of GDP. The US is one of the lowest, at 29%. The lowest was Mexico, at 18%
Thanks amarone. I searched but did not find. So we have the US at 29% versus Canada 37, the EU15 at 40%, etc
Susanann, who has higher taxes? You can see that, in fact, the US is among the lowest taxed nations. But perhaps you would prefer to live in Mexico?
I think you are missing the point.
Americans today, pay more in taxes, than on food, clothing and shelter combined.(http://premierlender.com/content/di...artno=7&zone=04).
This was not true until very recently.
The income tax is new to this country, and almost nobody paid any income taxes until the 1940’s. In 1940, only 4 million people paid income tax, and most of those 4 million, paid almost nothing(http://www.worldhistory.com/ustaxation.htm).
Yet, I think America seemed to do ok from 1789 to the 1940’s, and in fact, America was one of the most “advanced” countries of the world in 1940, and was one of the best places to live in 1940. America in 1940 was relatively a free place to live for most Americans.
Just because you can show that some other people may be more slaves to their governments than we are now, does not make us “free”, nor does it make us freer than we were.
I personally, was satisified with what our government could spend, and provide to everyone, with the dams, the highways, etc. I was certainly satisified with what I personally got from the American government, until the 1940’s.
I think those of you who want the government to be giving away more than it was in 1940, those of you who want it to do more federal projects than what was done up until 1940, should pay all of the income taxes.
I think it is rather obvious that it is YOU who would prefer to live in Mexico.
YOU are the one who seems to like the models of socialist governments. You are the ones making exuses for increasing government taxation and spending.
You are the ones who are NOT complaining that taxes are our highest family bill.
You seem to think it is good that someone else is 1% more of a slave than you are?
Obviously, it is those of YOU who dont mind the current taxes, who dont mind all the current regulations, who dont mind all the current gun laws, who would be better off in Mexico. You seem to like the trend that we are following Mexico,and other socialist governments with limited and regulated diminishing freedom.
Those of rest of us who want to spend our own money, and who want to be free, as our forefathers were, would prefer the American government to revert back to its more limited state of what it was from 1789 to the 1940’s.
