Land Of The Free?

This whole thread grew from a mistaken impression, on the part of Quoth the Raven, that US folks think our place is more free than QtR’s place. We don’t. Even back when lawyer Francis Scott Key saw the battle for Fort McHenry while stuck on a British warship, his poem didn’t say, “O’er the land that is more free than yours.” It’s “the land of the free.” The land was on the brink of being conquered, so his phrase was overblown, maybe. But, hey, it’s poetry! :wink: Poets get a little slack; half the time, nobody knows what they’re trying to say anyway.

Some places are more free than ours, and ours is more free than some other places. For example, I don’t remember hearing, in my lifetime, about a newspaper or radio station being shut down in my country because it spoke out against the government. On the other hand, it was illegal, when I was a kid, to marry someone of another race. We got that one straightened out, but if a gal wants to marry a gal, most states say, “No Addie and Eve, here, doll. Sorry.” :wink:

From here:

The top ten countries with the highest ratings for civil and political liberties are, in order:

Maybe Americans seem obsessed about freedom because they are the only country in the world whose military has always fought for freedom.

Every country has an army to defend its home turf–but only America has an army which has never defended its own borders from invaders.*

American soldiers have died everywhere except on their own soil, fighting not to defend themselves, but to defend freedom for others.

Yes, even in the current Iraq screw-up, the men in uniform genuinely believe they are fighting for freedom
And certainly in WWI, WWII, in Korea, in Vietnam—there was no other rationale. Even if a specific war seems wrong (lets not get hijacked into Iraq/Vietnam rants)–the official reason for sending American men to fight overseas has ALWAYS been to defend freedom.

Other nations may allow as much freedom for their own citizens as America does; but usually this is an accidental result of modern history-- not an intentional, integral part of the nation’s founding priniciples.

So Americans seem obsessed, because unlike Europeans, they talk about freedom, and sometimes die for it.

(*I’m ignoring the war of 1812, which left no serious impact on history.)

Well, excuse me for responding sarcastically to a thread that might as well be titled “Why does America suck so much?”

Umm, I think at least Canada falls into this same category. And probably a few more countries too.

ok ok ok!
:smack:
Sorry, I should have put far more thought into the OP and taken the time to formulate my point more coherently. I admit it’s all over the place. My bad.
No America-bashing was intended.

What I suppose I was trying to get at can be summed up as the following:

Do Americans *talk * about freedom, and use the word much more than citizens of other free countries?

If so, why?

And in broader terms, are Americans more patriotic than citizens of other countries? It seems to me that they are, sometimes ridiculously so.

Why do most of your politicians wear stars and stripes buttons? Why do people have flags in their gardens (ok the war, but people did it prior to 03 and I suspect will continue to so after Iraq, whenever that is)

I’ve never heard the expressions ‘God Bless Canada’, ‘God bless Ireland’ or ‘God Bless the UK’… (ok ‘God save the Queen’ but nobody really says that)

Yet ‘God bless America’ is everywhere :dubious:

Doesn’t such overt and active patriotism usually disappear a generation or two after independence?

Does anybody know what I’m talking about?

Ever hear the expression, “God keep our land glorious and free”?

Hint:O Canada - Wikipedia

Do not judge us by the words and actions of our politicians, please. please. :frowning:

Possibly, but believe or not, freedom does not come up very often in day-to-day conversation.

We are and have been on a Patriotic kick since 9/11 that has not been seen since the WWII era… On the other hand, if you look at us in the 70s, you might be amazed at how little the youth of America loved America.

We are on a strong Patriotic run ever since 9/11/01 not 2003. This will run its course and the flags will disappear. It always does.

Overt Patriotism does not go away in the USA; it just goes to sleep for a while and then returns. The strong peaks I know about were surrounding the Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII and most of the Fifties, briefly for Desert Storm and again since 9/11.

Yes, I think I do.

Jim

If the OP actually wants an honest answer, I’d say it’s for the reason I gave above, albeit without the snark.

America formed, as a nation, when most countries in Europe did not have political freedom. They were various monarchies, theocracies, oligarchies, and so forth. American identity as a free country was founded in opposition to the lack of freedom in Europe. And people who left Europe to settle in America often did so for that very reason. Of course, this phenomenon is not unique to America, for instance French Hugenots left France and settled in England because they were persecuted in Catholic France, Jews left Europe for the relative freedom of the Ottoman Empire, and so on.

Of course, the definition of American identity by contrasting it to Europe was because America was a relatively poor country compared to the states of Europe…much like a certain neighbor country of the US often defines itself by how it is different than the US. Now, around about the 1900s the US was as powerful as any European country, but Europe as a whole was still much less free than the US. Kings, aristocrats, class systems, state religions, colonies (US colonization was mostly different in that we colonized the continent westward and incorporated it rather than overseas), and so forth. Then along comes WWI, and then comes communism and fascism and WWII and the cold war.

And as has been pointed out, western Europe has been on par with the United States freedom-wise since the 1950s, still US defined itself by “freedom” in contrast with the decidedly not-free Soviet Union and its satelite states. Half of Europe was free, but the other half wasn’t.

And so we come to today, where just about every economically first rate country in the world is also a liberal democracy, although of various flavors due to various histories and social choices. I would agree that the US is no more free nowadays than these other countries, and any variation in scale depends on how you weight the scales, and how you weight the scales depends on your personal biases. Whether the US or Sweden or Ireland or France is “more free” is arguable, what isn’t arguable is that all those countries are more free than China, or Pakistan, or Nigeria, or Burma, or Cuba.

So America’s boast of being the most free country in the world is obsolete, because lots of other countries are now stable liberal democracies, there is zero chance of Germany returning to fascism, or Estonia returning to communism, or France returning to absolute monarchy. But the boast used to be broadly true, given a little latitude and poetic license and ignoring certain out-of-the-way areas. And it’s still part of the American self-conception, despite being no longer as accurate as it once was. The American political system and culture was formed at a time when liberal democracy was a radical revolutionary idea. Other countries that are now liberal democracies often became liberal democracies at a time when liberal democracy was sensible and mainstream and obvious and nothing to boast about. So boasting about your constitutional protections might seem silly in a day when OF COURSE everyone has constitutional protections, everyone knows that. But that didn’t used to be the case.

Sigh … you hear it now from our current PM.

Brilliant Lemur. Very well said. I think this ends the discussion, personally.

So do I. Excellent post.

And exactly how dry is the ink on those documents?

What does it matter? Just because the Constitution is older don’t make it superior. In fact, it’s out of date.

For instance, the South African Constitution, in addition to the same guff as the US one, has a bit about people having freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation - which led via Constitutional Court cases to gay adoptions and marriage. Does that make South Africa more free than the US?

I’d say that it’s all just words on paper unless they are enacted in the daily life of Society. By that measure, I’d argue that there are a lot more places more free than the US, starting with places under the ECHR, yeah. Hell, your papers can’t even report on what your Government’s doing in Iran without some patriots here getting in a huff about it. So much for a free press - Deep Throat wept!

Whoa up there, pard. Do you want to suppress the “patriots” free speech? Seems to me the fact that the press reported it kind of shoots down whatever point you were trying to make, unless you want to squash dissent.
Which would make sense I guess because, correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t some kinds of speech banned in parts of Europe? Not shouting “fire” in a theater but political symbols and ideas that, however offensive they may be to right-thinking people, are still protected around these parts? I seem to remember that swastika marked WWII memorabilia are illegal in France, and saying “The holocaust never happened” in Germany will get you in some serious ass trouble.

Does that count as Godwenizing?

Never said that - but it is laughable that they can object to a free press and still consider themselves advocates of a superior system, freedom-wise.

NO, my point was simply that there are people who object to the exercise of press freedom. I don’t want them squashed, just pointed at and laughed at.

Well never mind then, I’m all in favor of pointing and laughing at them.

HA-ha!

Oh, my, just terrible. Next thing you know, we’ll have God mentioned in the anthem and the Constitution!

Oh, wait.

Yes, I am sure that American Indians and slaves were very happy with their freedom in early American history.