[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I think it has to do with the fact that the country was established with the notion that freedom would be a bedrock principle of the country and the culture. A place like England isn’t the same, because although they have the same freedoms now, they didn’t always.
[/QUOTE]
And while we started with these basic freedoms, we don’t always observe them. Perception may not be reality, but it can certainly influence it.
Some of our obsession with freedom comes from the older generation that lived during WWII. Patriotism was at a peak during this time.
But I do believe America has more freedom than other countries because of upward mobility. All persons are considered equal under the law, there are no caste systems, no Lords and commoners, everyone has the equal chance under law to be as good, rich, famous, as they can be. Your bloodline is immaterial here. The person born in the worst poverty in America still has the potential of greatness in many different ways of his/her choosing. I realize some people and groups of people hold prejudices, but according to our laws these prejudices mean nothing. We are free to become what we will, truly free. Yes, I believe there is more freedom in the US than any other country.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
But I do believe America has more freedom than other countries because of upward mobility.
[/QUOTE]
I very much doubt that America has greater social and economic mobility than, for example, Sweden. Here, you can get the best education available no matter what your background, as education is virtually free. In the US, there are costs (rather heavy ones, as I understand it) involved in getting educated, providing a barrier for poor people. There’s no way that can lead to greater social and economic mobility.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
But I do believe America has more freedom than other countries because of upward mobility. All persons are considered equal under the law, there are no caste systems, no Lords and commoners, everyone has the equal chance under law to be as good, rich, famous, as they can be. Your bloodline is immaterial here. The person born in the worst poverty in America still has the potential of greatness in many different ways of his/her choosing. I realize some people and groups of people hold prejudices, but according to our laws these prejudices mean nothing. We are free to become what we will, truly free. Yes, I believe there is more freedom in the US than any other country.
[/QUOTE]
Your bloodline is immaterial in the US? cough Bush, Kennedy.
This is just pure propaganda, in my view. How can anything that you’ve said not be applied across the European Union, with the exception of the last vestiges of the UK nobility? By the way, social mobility (the chance for poor kids to attain greatness) is higher in the EU than in the USA. From an LSE study:
[QUOTE=LSE]
Jo Blanden, Paul Gregg and Steve Machin found that social mobility in Britain - the way in which someone’s adult outcomes are related to their circumstances as a child - is lower than in Canada, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. And while the gap in opportunities between the rich and poor is similar in Britain and the US, in the US it is at least static, while in Britain it is getting wider.
A careful comparison reveals that the USA and Britain are at the bottom with the lowest social mobility. Norway has the greatest social mobility, followed by Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Germany is around the middle of the two extremes, and Canada was found to be much more mobile than the UK.
[/QUOTE]
zhongguorenmin
Norway and Denmark are ahead of us? The shame! A bunch of fishermen and sandwichmakers, the lot of them!
[QUOTE=lekatt]
All persons are considered equal under the law, there are no caste systems, no Lords and commoners, everyone has the equal chance under law to be as good, rich, famous, as they can be.
[/QUOTE]
As mentioned earlier:
“Assuming recent incarceration rates remain unchanged, an estimated 1 of every 20 Americans (5%) can be expected to serve time in prison during their lifetime. For African-American men, the number is greater than 1 in 4 (28.5%).”
Source: Bonczar, T.P. & Beck, Allen J., US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Lifetime Likelihood of Going to State or Federal Prison (Washington DC: US Department of Justice, March 1997), p. 1.
If everybody is equal in the eyes of the law, then why are you **5 times ** more likely to end up in prison if you’re Black? :dubious:
Assuming the courts are racially unbiased*, then economic and social factors are to blame. So.. while it’s great to have the potential oppurtunity to prosper, in reality it means little to the many many people against whom the odds are greatly stacked…
In fact in the context of the perpetually screwed, I can’t help but see the whole ‘American Dream’ and ‘Land of Potential’ stuff as a hopeless fairy-tale… a cop-out excuse to not do anything to help the underpriviledged.
“sure you’re down there, and we’re up here! but you could be up here some day!! (snicker)”
*big assumption
“In 82% of the studies reviewed, race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks.”
“It is tempting to pretend that minorities on death row share a fate in no way connected to our own, that our treatment of them sounds no echoes beyond the chambers in which they die. Such an illusion is ultimately corrosive, for the reverberations of injustice are not so easily confined.”
-Justice William Brennan (1987)
[QUOTE=Usram]
OT, but the “distinguished British historian” in that Telegraph story is an absolute hoot. He’s a real-life Niles Crane:
[/QUOTE]
Shall we take these in order.
. Did you by any chance meet Steve a 6’4" trucker from Wichita with a fondness for mild mannered profsOh, for fuck’s sake.
The “Land of the Free” isn’t a slogan dreamed up by George Bush. It’s a slogan dreamed up a couple hundred years ago, back in the days when Europe was decidedly NOT free. Surely you Europeans remember those days? Back when America was a democracy, and you all were crouching in caves smacking each other with swords and declaring each other king and suchlike?
Oh, you’ve all been democratic and guarantee human rights for everyone…since 1950. Well all right then. So you’ve improved a bit since the old days. You’ve finally caught up with us on this freedom stuff. Good for you. We’re all very impressed over here, I can tell you. No, seriously, good show. Freedom good, tyranny bad, you’ve learned your lesson, and now we don’t have to bring up the past any more. Our long international nightmare is over, thanks to you guys renouncing tyranny. Thanks for that, by the way.
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
The “Land of the Free” isn’t a slogan dreamed up by George Bush. It’s a slogan dreamed up a couple hundred years ago, back in the days when Europe was decidedly NOT free. Surely you Europeans remember those days? Back when America was a democracy, and you all were crouching in caves smacking each other with swords and declaring each other king and suchlike?
Oh, you’ve all been democratic and guarantee human rights for everyone…since 1950. Well all right then. So you’ve improved a bit since the old days. You’ve finally caught up with us on this freedom stuff. Good for you. We’re all very impressed over here, I can tell you. No, seriously, good show. Freedom good, tyranny bad, you’ve learned your lesson, and now we don’t have to bring up the past any more. Our long international nightmare is over, thanks to you guys renouncing tyranny. Thanks for that, by the way.
[/QUOTE]
And to think - Americans are stereotyped as petulant and defensive when someone speaks about the US in less than glowing terms!
zhongguorenmin
[QUOTE=zhongguorenmin]
And to think - Americans are stereotyped as petulant and defensive when someone speaks about the US in less than glowing terms!
zhongguorenmin
[/QUOTE]
So, wait, I’m confused.
Are you annoyed by the slogan “The Land of the Free”, or not? My understanding is that you are.
Do you agree that the slogan originated at a time when most of Europe was decidedly, no-fooling, not free? Fact is, it did.
I agree that now that Europe and many other parts of the world are just as free as the United States, the slogan is outdated. Seriously, all sarcasm aside, I agree that nowadays the United States is just one free state among many. There’s a whole gorgeous rainbow of free states to choose from, nowadays. Except that didn’t used to be the case. Sure, the slogan is outdated, so the fuck what?
From the link
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0601-01.htm
bolding by me.
The Officer did abuse the man, the charges were dropped, the elected official over the Police acted, the the police are looking on this as misconduct.
The treatment of the Professor was flatly wrong, & I hope will be strongly dealt with.
[QUOTE=zhongguorenmin]
And to think - Americans are stereotyped as petulant and defensive when someone speaks about the US in less than glowing terms!
[/QUOTE]
Well OK, when I visit the UK I better see me some Hope and Glory or I’m raising a stink! And I won’t be fobbed-off with excellent beer and clean public bathrooms. And a Waldorf Salad, of I’ll bust somebody’s ass!
And if I visit France I expect Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, and Tout de Suite, too! Especially the fraternitie, because lots of times frère has picked me up at the airport and let me sleep on his couch. I expect no less!
I want truth in advertising standards applied to national anthems, dammit.
OK, is Canada really glorious and free? Does God really keep it that way? Does Canada really command true patriot love in all its sons? Just the sons? Why not the daughters? Isn’t it a bit presumptious to “command” love, why not invite love? Seems a bit authoritarian. And do people really stand on guard for it? Say if you were guarding Canada as a fighter pilot, wouldn’t it be better to sit?
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
So, wait, I’m confused.
Are you annoyed by the slogan “The Land of the Free”, or not? My understanding is that you are.
Do you agree that the slogan originated at a time when most of Europe was decidedly, no-fooling, not free? Fact is, it did.
I agree that now that Europe and many other parts of the world are just as free as the United States, the slogan is outdated. Seriously, all sarcasm aside, I agree that nowadays the United States is just one free state among many. There’s a whole gorgeous rainbow of free states to choose from, nowadays. Except that didn’t used to be the case. Sure, the slogan is outdated, so the fuck what?
[/QUOTE]
OK for the moment let’s ignore the fact that this is GD, so in principle my own views and motives are irrelevant - it’s the facts and arguments I advance that matter.
In general, I agree that the US has been a beacon of liberty. But the record is far, far from unblemished - as a nation you were beating and hanging from trees sections of your own population for trying to vote, for pity’s sake … and this in the middle of the twentieth century, really not that long ago.
But none of that really matters to me - I joined this thread to argue against the proposition that the US is ‘more free’ than any other country, and some uses of “the land of the free” which would seem to to argue in favour of this. I think it’s a matter of factual record (or as damn close as you can get in such matters) that most or all of the EU is as free as the US.
And in my opinion (though I accept this is contentious), it may be more free. For example, my own government doesn’t ban me from going to or buying things from countries it dislikes (cough Cuba).
zhongguorenmin
Since apparently no-one is bothering to read the first few lines of the original post, here they are again:
That’s what the thread is about. Not national anthems.
America’s quest for freedom, and the appreciation of her citizens for it, went down the drain after the Roosevelt junta successfully unseated one of her greatest presidents, Herbert Hoover, and installed Keneysian Nannyism via a dictatorship by bureaucracy.
Not sure which FDR program you’re referring to. As for Social Security, I think it has made us MORE free. It has helped a lot of seniors lead independent lives and freed their children from the burden of caring for them.
It’s so refreshing to hear from the fans of Herbert Hoover. Or maybe that should have been singular as I don’t know of more than one.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
America’s quest for freedom, and the appreciation of her citizens for it, went down the drain after the Roosevelt junta successfully unseated one of her greatest presidents, Herbert Hoover, and installed Keneysian Nannyism via a dictatorship by bureaucracy.
[/QUOTE]
Was there suppose to me a smiley on this post?
“Land of the Free” is of course from the Star Spangled Banner which was of course written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key. It is a nice sentiment, and nice saying, but I doubt most Americans put much more thought into this than a British citizen puts into “God save the Queen”.
Jim
Daniel Shays would ask that you flip a little further back on the calendar, Lib.
[QUOTE=Quoth the Raven]
I know this doesn’t apply to all Americans, but can we acknowledge that there exists a certain obsession, among some, with the word ‘freedom’ in the states? And perhaps a vague idea that US citizens are somehow, a little more free than the rest of us?
[/QUOTE]
Nope. I’m not willing to acknowledge that. And if I did, I’d not think it’s a topic worthy of debate since you are making assertions about the vague ideas of an unknown number of people who may or may not actually agree with what you are saying. Although you eventually asked for people who do think that way to respond, the rest of your post seems to be little more than Yank-bashing.
Still, it’s a free country so bash away.