From the CNN article:
What an ass. Am I the only one who finds this quote completely inappropriate? Does anyone really think this kid didn’t know that spraying bullets into his classmates was WRONG?
But that’s okay Georgey. Just smile for the camera, try to remember your soundbite and everything will be okay.
Ignoramus.
Sigh… 1415 days to go…
The stress isn’t all caused by bullies, though. Do you think that Writing a 6 page senior paper, trying to finish getting 20 books done, 20 community service hours, and worrying about going to court for truancy all at the same time isn’t stressful?
You guys had it easy. Us, we have to deal with all kinds of new “ideas” that are supposed to increase test scores. In fact, The Class of '01 (me included) is the first class in my school district that has to deal with the 20 books/ Service hours thing.
And then, there’s bullies. When you add them all up, the results can be disasterous. What eludes me though, is why bullies don’t get counseling, while the bullied do. I guess it’s all part of our society. Blame the victim.
Of course, then there’s the media. Sure the media can blame Videogames all they want, but NOOOOO, better not blame the schools. It would be wrong to do so. The schools never do anything wrong, they’re always right.
About gun control, I personally believe that if every citizen carried a gun and learned how to use it, gun violence would be a thing of the past. We can never get rid of all guns, just look at how we’re doing with drugs. However, we can make the guns completely useless.
And am I the only one who thinks that using this occurance to take pot-shots at Bush is also completely inappropriate?
Take a look at some of the things Clinton said about Columbine… Bush’s comments are standard, run-of-the-mill, general “support” sentiments.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly *
**
Of course I’m not sure Clinton’s a viable yardstick for propriety.
Sorry about the harshness, but I was just taken aback by those quotes. It wasn’t the support that bothered me – that’s standard. It was the implication that America’s children don’t already know right from wrong and the way he seemed to be catapulting off this to push what seemed to me to be his education reform agenda.
(and then of course, you saw me as doing the same, though that wasn’t my intention at all!)
Maybe I’m just tired. 
I think it’s perfectly appropriate to take note of the stupid things the President (happens to be Bush in this case) says about this.
If this has become the standard Presidential reaction, more’s the pity.
Yup. If only we had tacked a copy of the Ten Commandments up on the school wall, he would have KNOWN it was wrong and abandon the whole idea :rolleyes:.
I watched A and E tonight, and they were doing a special on workplace violence, and the subject got around to the Colombine shooting. 3 of the ‘experts’ were saying how the news media had to shoulder some responsibility here.
They said that newspapers don’t run suicides on page 1 because they ‘know’ some feeble minded idjit will copycat. Their point seemed to be that CNN, CSNBC, and other news channels offered a perfect opportunity for ineffectual losers to become a mythic anti-heroes. Not only do they get to strike out and feel powerful, but people pay lots of attention to them afterwards. The fact that the attention may lead to a lethal injection was, unfortunately, irrelevant.
The one adult who was on TV is dating the mother of the shooter’s friend. The shooter spent the night at their house over the weekend and talked about taking a gun to school and shooting kids…and these people (the adults) did NOTHING!!! That’s what really bothers me. They should have called the shooter’s parents, the police, the school…someone.
Very scary…when I dropped my girls off at middle school today, and looking at all the kids milling around, all I could think was, “Okay, which one has a gun in his backpack?”
Blame can only lie squarely on the shoulders of the student himself. Thousands and more people go through worse everyday, but none of them are pulling guns and shooting people down at random. Yes, schools are supposed to provide a safe learning environment, but they are not the police, not a prison (though most students would think so) and they are not the students parents. Yes, parents could have done more, raised their children better, but that is no guarantee that the children will grow up right.
And has anyone else noticed that all the kids doing this crap are male? Just goes to show you which sex has the more common sense.
First of all, I’m going to ignore the sexist closing remark (and yes, I am a woman).
Having been bullied for most of my elementary school career, I can honestly say that the school does shoulder at least some responsibility for putting a stop to that kind of behavior and getting help for the bully and, if needed, the victim. And having been bullied, I probably had at least some justification for fighting back, which I did when I brought a razor blade to school after a vicious physical assault which went unpunished. Was anyone injured by the razor blade? No. Was there overreaction on the part of the teacher and the administrator? You’d better believe it. I was taken out of school until I saw a psychiatrist. The shrink said there was not only nothing wrong with me, but for my own safety, I should go back into public school, which I did. That proved to be a good course of action. And FTR, once the details of the various physical assaults became known, my parents sued the school and settled.
So, if the parents’ efforts are useless and the school is not to take the place of the parents, whose ultimate responsibility is it to raise children so they “grow up right”? And how are they supposed to provide a safe learning environment if they haven’t the tools to do so?
Blaming the student doesn’t accomplish anything. We have no real way of knowing what was going through his mind as he shot those kids. We don’t know what triggered this attack, and if could’ve been prevented long before it escalated to violence and murder. It’s entirely possible that intervention could’ve prevented this tragedy. We just don’t know.
Robin
Freedom Oh, often enough.
Tracer And, so?
Ex Tank Of course we have a Free Press in this society, and news is news.
Oh and the fact that schools are safer I bet is really comforting to the families of this tragedy.
…and the struggle continues:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20010306_69.html
I am sorry, but I cannot see how this can be anything but the kids fault. Even a child from a broken home with extreme stress can still do good, and a kid from a good home w/ little problems can still do something horrible. You, as a parent, can teach a kid anything you want, but they are still going to make up their own mind. A good part of a child “growing up right” comes from the child themselves. I came from a severely dysfunctional home of abuse and alchololism, but that did not make me a criminal or incite murderous rage into me. I decided what I wanted to do, not my family or school.
I agree w/ you that we do not know what all happened, but who really knows what the school knew? The school cannot be blamed if they knew nothing of the bullying or the kids intent. And the school did not put the gun in the kids hand, he did that himself.
This kid knew what he was doing. He went up to that school and opened fire on numerous people, some of which more than likely had nothing to do with any of the bullying. He was not defending himself like you had done, he went to that school to commit murder and shoot people. Yes the whole incident could have been avoided, but it was not, and the kid went through with it and now he must suffer the consequences because he chose to do this. They will find out all the details of why and how, but he is still responsible for his actions, not his parents or the school or any other person involved in this.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sojourn26 *
**
Even if you are a male it is still a sexist remark. Actually it is a rather unimformed opinion.
Back to the op
Spring is in the air and so are the bullets.
I am not suprised this happened. I am not suprised at anything anymore.
Oh and G W is a moran for using this to promote his anti-abortion stance.
(that’s what he ment by it)
Of course he promotes values that respect life by installing the electric couch in Texas.
I think in such cases it’s more important to think about probabilities instead of possibilities. The child from the broken home faces a much greater probability of failure due to his/her environment.
I don’t think it’s nearly so cut-and-dried. Sure, the kid who fired the shots obviously bears much of the responsibility. But the parents bear some as well, for not teaching him better values. And how about a culture that worships violence and guns?
Your argument implies that the whole nature-vs.-nurture argument has been solved, and nature is the clear victor. Most scientists would disagree.
A more accurate figure would be 283,739,101 and rising. See http://www.census.gov.
From CNN.com:
“Andy Williams [the shooter] and his father moved to Santee from Maryland about a year ago, the boy’s mother, Linda Wells, told The New York Times, so that the elder Williams could follow a job opportunity.”
It isn’t California’s gun control laws that failed, so stop trying to blame them. (I’m not even sure that, prior to the kid’s unlocking his dad’s gun cabinet, he broke any laws.) Gun control laws on a state-by-state basis won’t work that well if folks can load up their guns in one state and move to another.
So what laws could have worked?
I imply no such thing. Consider it like this then, a parent can teach the children good values all they want, but like all teachers will tell you “you cannot teach someone something if they do not want to learn”. Take cigarettes for example: what is the statistic up to for teenage smoking? 1 out of 3 teens smoke now? That is a pretty large # of teenagers smoking. Now, does this mean that all these teens’ parents never taught them nothing about smoking cigarettes? Never told them it was unhealthy, disgusting, and so forth? What about drinking? Go to any college and ask the people there what their parents think of drinking and what they have told them. What about any of you ready these posts? Do you follow all the values that your parents taught you? If not, then why do you do it?
As for the culture that worships violence response? That is an old arguement. Humans have been doing the same and worse for the past 10000 years. How many Gods of Death are still around and how many human sacrifices to some deity or another have you heard about lately?
First off, to the poster who said “don’t listen” I would like to agree with other posters that this is not worthwhile advice. Dignan, you have obviously been picked on at some time in your life, like just about everybody. But probably only sporadically. Therefore, don’t listen becomes normal. You clearly have not been a designated nerd.
A designated nerd has no choice but to listen every day. They probably are of small build, meek personailty, and are brighter than average. They are universially considered freaks by the entire school. You could probably think of a few off the top of your head without even trying. For these people, there is no escape from the torment. Teachers are no help, because punishment of the tormentors only brings worse reprisals from the bullies. Besides, it is not usually one or two bullies, its everybody. It becomes percieved that everyone hates you on sight. It’s probably not completely inaccurate because new students learn quickly that being friends with you is a sure way to loserdom. In my case, my own younger brother refused to associate with me, as he wanted friends, through the majority of grade, middle and high school.
Now, I didn’t take a gun and shoot everybody, maybe I’m a stronger personality or don’t balance precariously on the edge of mental illness. But I can tell you the feeling of helplessness that could result in somebody bringing a gun to school. The fact is little can be done. You can’t tell, because of the reprisals mentioned before. Ever hear the advice to just “laugh.” Sure, then they point at you and continue to ridicule. Laughing means it’s true, don’t you know. Walking away doesn’t work, as a swift kick in the back usually takes care of that. Besides, it is not uncommon to be surrounded by purpatrators. You know what would work? A good ass-kicking for the perpatrator. There are two problems with this. One is of course that all bullies are cowards. Now McGruff might say that this just means that you can stand up to them, and they will back down. However this isn’t entirely accurate. You see, like all cowards only pick on you in two situations. Superiority in numbers, or superiority in size. I’ve stood up to more than one bully in my time, and had my butt kicked for the trouble. Furthermore god forbid I ever won a fight. I would have had school administration suspending me. Of course I was suspended several times for defending myself, even when the other guy started it. Remember, fighting is always wrong, years of humiliation and torture are much better. Not only that, but the parents of the kid who likely has been torturing me for years would be demanding significant repraisals from my parents. Only recently a superior of my fiancee was complaining that some parent “condoned his son’s violence.” The child who’s father condoned his behavior had hit the superior’s child. There were six kids with the child that was hit, all tormenting the one child, who finally swung at one of the kids. In my opinion that kid had every right. Perhaps he should have just “not listened,” but tell me, is that really an option.
It’s all a load of crap, built on the lie that violence never solves anything. When the day comes that schools and parents realize that occasionally a fistfight is needed for the sake of the self-esteem of the tormented, we will be better off. Should the tormented actually win, I believe the bully has learned a valuable lesson, and will probably be a better person for it. The truth is, maybe the reason that I didn’t bring a machine gun into school was that I got those ass-kickings. I kept fighting back, despite the fact that I was usually left on the ground crying. What I do know, is that if a person is picked on long enough, he starts to believe his tormentors. That kind of self-esteem loss, and constant picking on can lead to the mind snapping. It is likely the student who did this is crimnally insane, and will end up in a sanitarium. Maybe this instance couldn’t have been avoided. Maybe he was just doomed, but I hate to think that we couldn’t have saved his life and several others taken in a school shooting by taking care of the problem that may have driven him to insanity. (DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT BLAME THE STUDENTS OR THE STAFF OF THE HIGH-SCHOOL. NOR DO I BLAME THE PARENTS. THIS GOES DOUBLE IF THE STUDENT IS ACTUALLY SANE, IN WHICH CASE HE SHOULD BE SENT UP THE RIVER, RATHER THAN INSTITUTIONALIZED. The blame lies first and foremost with the student. For all the flaws in the education system, most people turn out fine, and most nerds turn out quite good.)
It has been long been my opinion that we need to re-look at the way we handle bullies in school. Too often we look at this as a part of life, and that is garbage. The bullies need to be reformed, or they become adult bullies. And while the majority of the picked on become well-adjusted adults, there is no reason they should have to endure what they endured while children. While I am safe and happy now, with a marriage coming, I still can see the tormentors (sorry for the repetitve use of that word) when I close my eyes. At 23 the pain has not gone away, and I doubt it ever will. There is no way I will let my child have my childhood. He will be taught there is a line you have to draw, and if violence (physical, fistfight) is the only solution then so be it. He will also be taught that nothing calls for lethal violence. Sadly, he may still one day end up in a school shooting, on either end. If so, all I can say is that I helped him handle stress and bullies to the best of my ability. Should he become a bully, he will be punished, and I will bear no ill will to anyone who should take a swing at him.
Sorry this was real long, its a sore spot with me obviously.
It’s probably not an issue of common sense and more one of tendency to be violent.
If we want to know why it’s happening, we should figure out the change in variables.
Before Columbine, I had never seen this happen. Is it because of some change in our society since a few years ago? Or is it because Columbine publicised it so much?
I do think gun-control laws help. They don’t get to the root of the problem, obviously, but it you can’t get a gun, you can’t shoot someone. Although, there was a shooting in Alberta.
First off, to the poster who said “don’t listen” I would like to agree with other posters that this is not worthwhile advice. Dignan, you have obviously been picked on at some time in your life, like just about everybody. But probably only sporadically. Therefore, don’t listen becomes normal. You clearly have not been a designated nerd.
A designated nerd has no choice but to listen every day. They probably are of small build, meek personailty, and are brighter than average. They are universially considered freaks by the entire school. You could probably think of a few off the top of your head without even trying. For these people, there is no escape from the torment. Teachers are no help, because punishment of the tormentors only brings worse reprisals from the bullies. Besides, it is not usually one or two bullies, its everybody. It becomes percieved that everyone hates you on sight. It’s probably not completely inaccurate because new students learn quickly that being friends with you is a sure way to loserdom. In my case, my own younger brother refused to associate with me, as he wanted friends, through the majority of grade, middle and high school.
Now, I didn’t take a gun and shoot everybody, maybe I’m a stronger personality or don’t balance precariously on the edge of mental illness. But I can tell you the feeling of helplessness that could result in somebody bringing a gun to school. The fact is little can be done. You can’t tell, because of the reprisals mentioned before. Ever hear the advice to just “laugh.” Sure, then they point at you and continue to ridicule. Laughing means it’s true, don’t you know. Walking away doesn’t work, as a swift kick in the back usually takes care of that. Besides, it is not uncommon to be surrounded by purpatrators. You know what would work? A good ass-kicking for the perpatrator. There are two problems with this. One is of course that all bullies are cowards. Now McGruff might say that this just means that you can stand up to them, and they will back down. However this isn’t entirely accurate. You see, like all cowards only pick on you in two situations. Superiority in numbers, or superiority in size. I’ve stood up to more than one bully in my time, and had my butt kicked for the trouble. Furthermore god forbid I ever won a fight. I would have had school administration suspending me. Of course I was suspended several times for defending myself, even when the other guy started it. Remember, fighting is always wrong, years of humiliation and torture are much better. Not only that, but the parents of the kid who likely has been torturing me for years would be demanding significant repraisals from my parents. Only recently a superior of my fiancee was complaining that some parent “condoned his son’s violence.” The child who’s father condoned his behavior had hit the superior’s child. There were six kids with the child that was hit, all tormenting the one child, who finally swung at one of the kids. In my opinion that kid had every right. Perhaps he should have just “not listened,” but tell me, is that really an option.
It’s all a load of crap, built on the lie that violence never solves anything. When the day comes that schools and parents realize that occasionally a fistfight is needed for the sake of the self-esteem of the tormented, we will be better off. Should the tormented actually win, I believe the bully has learned a valuable lesson, and will probably be a better person for it. The truth is, maybe the reason that I didn’t bring a machine gun into school was that I got those ass-kickings. I kept fighting back, despite the fact that I was usually left on the ground crying. What I do know, is that if a person is picked on long enough, he starts to believe his tormentors. That kind of self-esteem loss, and constant picking on can lead to the mind snapping. It is likely the student who did this is crimnally insane, and will end up in a sanitarium. Maybe this instance couldn’t have been avoided. Maybe he was just doomed, but I hate to think that we couldn’t have saved his life and several others taken in a school shooting by taking care of the problem that may have driven him to insanity. (DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT BLAME THE STUDENTS OR THE STAFF OF THE HIGH-SCHOOL. NOR DO I BLAME THE PARENTS. THIS GOES DOUBLE IF THE STUDENT IS ACTUALLY SANE, IN WHICH CASE HE SHOULD BE SENT UP THE RIVER, RATHER THAN INSTITUTIONALIZED. The blame lies first and foremost with the student. For all the flaws in the education system, most people turn out fine, and most nerds turn out quite good.)
It has been long been my opinion that we need to re-look at the way we handle bullies in school. Too often we look at this as a part of life, and that is garbage. The bullies need to be reformed, or they become adult bullies. And while the majority of the picked on become well-adjusted adults, there is no reason they should have to endure what they endured while children. While I am safe and happy now, with a marriage coming, I still can see the tormentors (sorry for the repetitve use of that word) when I close my eyes. At 23 the pain has not gone away, and I doubt it ever will. There is no way I will let my child have my childhood. He will be taught there is a line you have to draw, and if violence (physical, fistfight) is the only solution then so be it. He will also be taught that nothing calls for lethal violence. Sadly, he may still one day end up in a school shooting, on either end. If so, all I can say is that I helped him handle stress and bullies to the best of my ability. Should he become a bully, he will be punished, and I will bear no ill will to anyone who should take a swing at him.
Sorry this was real long, its a sore spot with me obviously.