Congratulations, Stuffinb; you’ve convinced me that the best use of a fire extinguisher is for thwacking people over the head with.
My “15 minutes” quip is derived from a quote by Andy Warhol from the 60s:
So you took my point about sensationalism in the media to be a call for abrogation of the 1st Ad.? Please re-read Spooje’s post on the subject, up above.
Of course, Mr. Warhol later recanted:
Which is, IMHO, more appropriate to our times than when he uttered then over 30 years ago.
Everything rushtopher said goes double for me.
Sorry for the duplicate post. The first time I submitted I timed out, and got the dreaded white screen of death (similar to the Windows blue screen of death). Didn’t know if it got through or not. Now if only it wasn’t so frickin’ long…
It is a bit of a cliche, and when it’s following you around school, showing up at your house, in your locker and your lunch, your schoolbooks, etc . . . the occasional “go suck an egg, X!” is completely tolerable, if annoying. Constant berating to the point of having to switch school districts is beyond unnecessary. It’s unhealthy. It’s not right.
"I don’t think it’s that hard. If it’s only verbal disregard it."
Sometimes it goes so far beyond verbal that just verbal would be more than welcome. Sometimes it goes as far as being chased down to be beaten by five or six people. Or farther.
"If it becomes physical then the administration should (has to?) get involved."
They don’t. They’re afraid of lawsuits, and in some cases afraid of the kids themselves. Yeah, I know, they’re “just kids”, but they’ve gotten away with years of tormenting others. It’s been developed into an art.
"I don’t think there is any excuse for this kind of shit. It’s pretty irritating that the news will try to push blame away from the shooter onto the shooter’s tormentors."
Which shit?
Have one of your kids be verbally, physically, psychologically and emotionally battered, beaten and otherwise abused for several years. See how their sanity and demeanor holds up.
In other words, if I start beating you up and you retaliate, is it your fault or mine?
I now see you retracted that part of the quote. Do you understand why the shooter is not the whole of the blame?
"There are plenty of other solutions when there are problems at school. Anything more than a fistfight (as a last resort) is stupid."
Um . . . you get beaten up daily. How do you resolve that other than paying the guy off or fighting back?
That would be, what less than once a year? That would put “School Shootings” in the bottom 1/1000th of 1% of shootings, or something like that?
Sure, it sucks for the family. But the other thousands upon thousands of murders a year that DON’T take place in schools suck just as much.
Concealed carry.
…but probably wouldn’t have. My mind, even back in Jr. High, isn’t put together that way.
I would have had an air-tight alibi, and there might have been few “missing, presumed dead”…
I too was taught “violence never solves anything” and “never, ever fight” by my mother. Dad disagreed, but remained silent in the name of domestic tranquility.
So I got my ass kicked on a weekly basis and horribly ridiculed on a daily for most of my Jr. High years.
Being smart bullies, they never went for face shots; that leaves readily seen evidence. It was only chance that my mom saw the bruises on my torso, and called the school to complain.
The administration’s response was about as strong as lukewarm watered-down oatmeal, and got the beatings upped to a twice- or three-times-a-week ordeal. I kept silent for fear that my mom would complain again, and that I would be hospitalized or killed by these thugs.
This was also about the time that my Dad briefly locked away all of his guns. He started to tell me how to defend myself, and was going to enroll me in Karate, but a screaming hissy-fit by my pacifist mother nixed that.
What changed? My brother-in-law, an Army E-7, showed me some stuff on the sly while home on leave, and told me some things about violence, and it’s proper application, and a few tidbits about tender portions of the human anatomy guaranteed to slow down or disable an attacker. He also mentioned some stuff about ambush tactics and guerilla warfare, and how it might apply on a personal level.
That may not have been enough in and of itself, but next year, in our freshman year at HS, the “Bully Club” went to various different classes. Kicking one person’s ass at a time is a lot simpler than 5 or 6 at a time. I took my lumps, too, but it never came to the attention of the administration.
Locker room stuff. After school stuff. You know. “Kids will be kids” and all that.
But they got the message and left me alone.
And I became a firm believer in the morality of violence applied in defense of oneself, or another.
There is, IMHO, no crueler creature on this planet than kids. They make Nazis look kind and sympathetic in comparison.
I don’t advocate that every kid that’s being picked on to lash out violently, especially not in a mass-violence form.
But a few busted kneecaps, cracked tibias and humeri, and a single bullet (sans fingerprints) left in their shirtpocket whilst they lay about screaming in pain, and the thug crews will get the message.
And the baseball bat was for P.E. Class. Honest.
Andy William’s is a coward, IMHO. But he’s also a victim, one I can empathize with even if I don’t condone his actions.
A victim of bullies and tormentors; of years of denigration and physical abuse; of a system that turned a blind eye and let it go by; of a society so scared of confrontation, so morally weak as to allow themselves to be intimidated into docility that the only form of expression William’s felt he could rely upon to receive attention was uncontrollable rage and random violence.
Blame it on the guns? Cartoons? Video Games? Rap Music?
Sure, why not. Blame 'em all and a few I didn’t even mention.
That avoids the issue and allows the teachers, principals and parents to look themselves in the eye in the mirror every morning, so supremely confident in their non-violence that they are truly stunned when another kid checks out, or worse, flips out, loads up and goes hunting in the halls of education.
Mom and I don’t talk about violence; she has made her disappointment in me clear. Not that I lose any sleep over it.
And my children will not live in fear of bullies. Ever.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by iampunha *
**
Sometimes it goes so far beyond verbal that just verbal would be more than welcome. Sometimes it goes as far as being chased down to be beaten by five or six people. Or farther.
**
FYI in CA 3-1 odds against you legally constitutes a lethal threat and you are allowed to respond with lethal force even if your assailants are unarmed
Yikes… case there are any young tormentees getting ideas… maybe you could provide a cite?
at least?
Clearly you did not read my second post. Give it a shot.
Was this boy to the point where he was changing school districts to get away from the teasing? Not that I’ve heard.
Yeah, there you go. They never get involved :rolleyes:. Nice blanket statement.
Nope, I sure don’t. I suppose you’d like to put some of it on the bullies and some of it on the movies and TV and the availibility of guns, etc. No one pulled the trigger but that kid! Therefore, he is responsible.
I haven’t seen any reports that this kid was physically picked on. He wasn’t totally isolated either. He had friends.
There are other solutions. I’ve never seen anyone beaten up daily (of course, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen). You can go to the administration or police, except possibly in rare cases.
One thing that struck me, in the reporting as to how there were people who had heard about his intentions and did not follow up…
… How many of us would assume when a kid speaks of wanting to kill someone, that he does constitute enough of a threat to intervene? May be time to rethink the adage that “talk is cheap.” But I hesitate, as down that path lie stupid “zero tolerance” rules that require the student’s suspension and referral to counseling if s/he writes a poem about death, or if s/he makes “shooting” motions with a finger.
Primary responsibility does lie with the shooter. Going on an indiscriminate death-dealing rampage is not justifiable under whatever the circumstances. Heck, legally not even soldiers in wartime can do that.
The various contributing factors DO have to be looked at in order to minimize chances of a future incident. Most of us, however hot-tempered, even a majority of the mentally ill, have developed a sort of regulator on our aggression that stops us well short of taking life viciously. Call it values, call it conditioning, call it morals, that’s beside the point. We do need to look into possible reasons this young man bypassed or was lacking that safety brake, and do something to change that.
Bullying, for instance: a school district should be able to crack down early and hard on a bully… and on his parents, too, specially if they threaten to sue or otherwise demonstrate they support his abusive ways. Good mental health attention to youth: not just some overworked all-purpose “counselor” but teams of professionals that can help the young people see that life is not ruined because they’re having a hard time in 11th grade, and can spot the ones with real problems. Parents who are half awake and pay attention – that’s good, too.
I’m pro- gun control in the sense I don’t believe just any idiot should be able to get himself armed, and that no-one needs to personally own the firepower of an infantry squad. But honestly, if this guy had not had access to guns, who’s to say he would not have tried to set fire to the school with people in it? Or to classmates’ homes with them inside?
jrd
Interesting thread…
First an attempt to blame the victims…
Who, btw, apparently were not the folks who stole the perpetrator’s skateboards…
And nary a word about California’s other recent school tragedy…
That of the freshman who ran down five pedestrians, killing four of them…
But that was done with a car…
And wasn’t exactly on campus…
So, obviously, it has nothing to do with any of this.
This is an extremely raw, emotional issue with me, and at this point in my life I’m in no mood to pull punches, so some of you might want to skip this post.
Let me get one thing clear. I do not have the tiniest shred of sympathy for the bullies and tormentors (regardless of whether any got killed). I’ve suffered at the hands of these subhumans for nearly a decade, and as far as I’m concerned all their lives are absolutely worthless. In fact, my only regret is that they usually die quickly in shootouts, which is more than any of them deserve.
I also have nothing but the most vehement contempt for the faculty and parents who continually strain to jam their heads just a few more inches up their butts. In my four years at high school, I must have reported dozens of incidents, and I was met with lies, ridiculous evasive comments, or outright rejection every time. The counselors, by far, were even worse…I’d be hard-pressed to name one positive quality for any of them.
There is no possible justification for teasing. There is no possible justification for driving a fellow student to madness. There is no possible justification for acting like a giant a**. And anyone who’s in a position to halt the tragedy but does nothing is a waste of flesh who deserves nothing out of life.
Maybe the teachers simply won’t do anything to help. Maybe they can’t. Doesn’t matter, the result was the same. I am emotionally scarred FOR LIFE, and no amount of time can ever change that. I am deaf to all excuses, rationalizations, and boilerplate responses. Unless you’ve been through what I did, you don’t know a thing.
On the other hand…mindless shootouts are totally dumb. Often they don’t even get the right people (I’m thinking Columbine here). Besides, mass murders can only intensify the prejudice simply because they’re so mindless. Even in my darkest days, I never would have considered killing everyone in sight (and believe me, the bloodlust was there). With that in mind, I’d like to point out that video games can’t be blamed, since they invariably penalize killing innocents.
Sheesh. The solution is so obvious. We need smaller classrooms, better parents, better teachers, and quite possibly a complete overhaul of our education system. Better gun control might also help, but it’s no substitute for the desperately-needed fundamentals. How to do it? I wish I knew.
And where, pray tell, was this “attempt to blame the victims”?
Hear, hear, DKW. Childhood’s one big-ass-fucking bitch. I can recall my childhood tormentors… most of them are related to me…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dignan *
Was this boy to the point where he was changing school districts to get away from the teasing? Not that I’ve heard.
[quote]
Right, and I’m not saying that was the case. I’m saying it happens. I’m sorry if I came off otherwise. I don’t know enough about Andy Williams yet to venture a guess as to why he specifically did what he did. I do know that when I was in high school probably half the school thought I was just fine. Most of my friends thought I was messed up and my closest friends knew the school had messed me up something fierce. The Abbott (equivalent of principal) of the school thought I was a delightful, happy boy.
Then allow me to rephrase: in my experience, having personally dealt with two ineffective administrations in schools, and having talked to a slew of others who experienced similar things (ineffective administrations) with public and private schools from the 60s to today, I have found select few (admins) that were beneficial to students I knew rather than detrimental or neutral at best. For a year or two I was on a newsgroup that basically consisted of survivors of bullying, some parents, some adult survivors and some who are, for all I know, still being bullied, much to the chagrin and heartache of their parents. I think there were three success stories related to administrations of the dozens of stories I heard. There are 25 of them on this page. Note that while I was on the list (the email list, as far as I know, was disbanded after yahoo took control of the host of the group) there were personal accounts that were not put up online for any number of reasons.
I put some of it on the bullies, but I put a great deal in the parents and the teachers and the administration, and especially people who watch kids get beaten and bullied and do nothing about it.
Movies have been violent nearly as long as there have been movies. Guns have been available for . . . well, a long time.
The student pulled the trigger. What moved him to that outcome?
I had friends when I was near suicide. What prevented me from going over the edge was the fear of not being successful. Having friends doesn’t mean your life isn’t full of waiting for someone to come make your day interesting.
When I got beaten by two girls in my class, my parents went to the school administration and told them. Admin promised to do something about it. Result: I got a worse time at school.
I’m not trying to advocate NOT going to the administration, just pushing the real notion that it is not necessarily going to work. And if it doesn’t you need to have a backup plan. Or five.
As for beaten up daily . . . yes. It happens. And I’m afraid all I have to support that is anecdotal evidence, a large part of which I’ve deleted; all those emails from ravendays (the newsgroup I was on) pile up quickly.
And (this will not be news to some of you) emotional or psychological abuse is much more difficult to heal than physical. FWTW.
Am I the only one who was disappointed that the shooter survived?
About the gun issue. the last case I heard about was a kid who was found with a room full of pipe bombs. Is that better than taking a 22 revolver to school?
yes I put partial blame on the entertainment climate of violence and thrill seeking.
A word of advice for all those posters who were bullied earlier in life. When I was in elementary school, I was picked on constantly through racial taunts (I was in a just about all white school, and I am Native American). I must agree that in just about all cases w/ bullies violence usually ends up as the only means to stop the torment. The bullying finally ended after I ended up going to another school. Not because my mother thought it the best thing to do, but because I was expelled from that school for constant fighting. Go figure.
As to the advice. I was never picked on again until my freshman year in high school by a senior, and I found one very valuable lesson: the first time it happens, crack down on them. Hard. Very Hard. Show others that you will not tolerate ANY such actions to yourself from anyone. Mostly this advice will do you no good today, but it should help you when you have children of your own.
Just be careful on how you apply the means for a crackdown, I was forever known as not only the guy not to be picked on, but a psycho also.
In no way intending to provoke but simply offering a non-domestic perspective………
Is it implied in this thread that US school children are more prone to bullying and / or that US authorities are doing less to prevent bullying than other countries ?
Or, is it that only in the US can bullying lead to kids shooting guns (did they find seven other weapons at his home when the police searched it ?) ?
is this thread about the latest shooting? http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/williamsport010307.html
I posted the thread in reference to the shooting in San Diego, but that’s pretty much irrelevant. It applies to school shootings in general.