Lynn the Packrat
Oh, topolino, now I have to disagree with you.
My wife and I get along about as well as two people can. But as with every woman I have lived with, the females are much pickier than the males. My wife has many idiosyncracies that could be annoying if I chose to pay any attention to them (leaving 3 pairs of shoes in every room of the house, for one.)
I just think that the tendency for men is to shrug the shoulders and adapt to it where women are pretty sure that they have to CHANGE the man’s behavior. And oddly, many of these behavior may be ones that they exhibit themselves.
On a related note, why do men tend to drink more? Most guys I know consider a fun night out to include some pool and moderate quantities of beer. This does not seem to be true of women.
“Do that which consists in taking no action and order will prevail” --Lao Tzu
OK Lynn, I can concede that someone who lives with a legally blind diabetic ought to put the seat down, but the other 99% of men in the world should be able to expect their housemates to look before sitting.
What about the guy who expects the seat to be up and winds up pissing all over it? Nobody talks about him 
Never regret what seemed like a good idea at the time.
Mr. Z.,
I think you just haven’t met the right women.
After I met my wife, I realized that this debate is silly. If everybody puts the seat and the lid down, then everybody has to go through the same amount of work to use the commode. You get an added bonus if you have a dog.
Rich
I think the problem is epitomized in the topic title. “Learning a Lesson?” Ugh! You’re my girlfriend not my obedience school instructor! The problem is the stereotypical female desire to change their man. Or at least to mold them into something they find acceptable.
I don’t see how “putting the mail into a nice neat pile” equates genuine “respect”. Sounds like a red herring to me.
Men also place importance on things that aren’t a part of the “big picture.” Hell, a woman who can perform oral sex without acting like it’s a horrible tortuous burden every time is important to a good number of guys.
I look forward to many more years of non-marriage.
True, I have only met one woman who is right.
Of course, knowing who is “right” is tough because the debates we are discussing here are not usually brought up until the comitment is deep.
Really, who is going to say “I love this person deeply but they don’t put the mail in a neat pile so I have to break it off.”
I am afraid we just have to chalk it up to gender and general differences.
And I agree with Alphagene: who is anyone to be “teaching Lessons”? That was my parents’ job.
Well, I’m not sure what my medical problem is (I’ve been checked for diabetes…and nothing) but I’ll wake up in the middle of the night needing to pee urgently. It’s not even like I drink alot before I go to bed. I make a mad dash for the bathroom. Have, in the past, fallen in.
Now, my bf puts both the seat and the lid down. This is fine because I KNOW that’s how it’s going to be when I have to pee at night so I can make a quick swift motion to lift the lid. I didn’t even have to ask him to do this. It’s how he was raised. When I asked him why he does it, he said it lets less germ out of the toilet when you flush. I have read that before also.
Mr Z, out of all the things you listed, I did say that I wasn’t too sure about the capping of the toothpaste, eating slower, the clothes thing, and moderate drinking.
As for drinking, if you’re driving, you’re a mean drunk, or she’ll have to clean up the puke, then I can understand. Otherwise, why you couldn’t have a couple of beers, I don’t know. If there aren’t going to be bad consequences, she shouldn’t stand in your way.
The other things are a matter of health, respect, or safety. If a guy drives too fast or drunk, he could kill someone or himself. I’d rather someone who cares so little for other people that they drive drunk or recklessly kill only themselves but, unfortunately, they often kill other people. Anyway, I covered this before.
If she needs his help with the children or the couple seldom gets to be together, blowing her off to go out with the boys would be rude. Now, if she’s always going out and doesn’t want him to, that’s not fair to him. Ideally, they should take turns watching the kids or cleaning or whatever.
Some people are unnecessarily militant about a clean house. If you leave clutter around and they go ballistic, maybe that’s not the person for you. Personally, I can deal with clutter and I even create a bunch. When it comes to dirt (not clutter, dirt), as I said, dirt can bring in the little critters. This is pretty damn unhealthy for her and especially for the kids. Now, granted, she should have known her guy enjoyed living in filth before she reproduced with him but, still, once kids are involved, filth is not acceptable. Little bits of dirt, over time, become filth if you don’t clean up after yourself. She shouldn’t have to clean up after him especially if she works outside of the home as much as him.
I think the basic thing is-if the guy do something that’s going to kill someone or yourself, harm her or the children, shows a total lack of responibility or compassion, he’s going to hear about it.
Now, if your woman drives fast or drunk or invites in the mice and bugs or abandons you when you need help, you have every right to be livid.
I have to apologize if the tone of my title gave that impression… it was not my intent. I was thinking of the people mentioned who don’t seem to learn the lesson and insist on complaining about the reaction they get. Since at least one other person mentioned encountering that , I know I am not alone… and (as with anyone who keeps making the same mistake) it makes me crazy to listen.
I think my point is - if it bothers you enough that you are bothering other people about it, why are you in that relationship? In my mind, it falls into the same category as people (mostly women in this case) that date abusive or unavailable people and complain about how unhappy that behavior makes them. In both cases, I want to say - why are you there, why are you putting up with behavior that makes you crazy? For myself, I would not choose a relationship where any one element caused me enough grief that I felt I had to complain about it on a regular basis.
The “small things are not valid in determining respect” issue is something to which I would like to respond, but I am not sure I can make myself clear without resorting to cliche. For me, it’s a matter of choice. If someone chooses me, to be involved with me, then they choose to give up other women and all those related “single” things - as do I. But when I request a change in some other aspect of life, I am then invading areas that have not been chosen for change… which makes it more important and also more likely to be a point of contention. I can see how it would feel - have felt that myself, when asked not to do things that I didn’t think were included in the ‘contract’ of dating. I think the biggest point is that I don’t think of these issues as bigger or smaller - they are all one, falling under “things that are involved in this relationship.” Most of the men I’ve seen have not been able to see that – for them there are big things and small things, and I should only complain if they fail in the big things. I don’t see it that way, but I can’t think of a good example right now.
The reason gentlemen prefer blondes is that there are not enough redheads to go around.
I agree with Lynn about the toilet seat issue. During my recent pregnancy, when I was getting up constantly to pee, falling in the toilet did not do wonders for making me nice to live with. (I could barely sleep the last month, so I really loathed any interruption of sleep, especially if it involved cold water!). And like Lynn, I am legally blind without correction.
Keeping the house clean is a respect issue. I’m the messy one in our home, and I think it’s a subtle rebellion against living with a clean-nazi as a kid. Now I have to remind myself to pick up not because I think it’s that important, but because it makes my husband happy, and I figure, why irritate him about this issue when there are more important things to fight about.
Men, if this is all it takes to please your woman, do it and be grateful, ok?
Prairie Rose
If you’re not part of the solution you’re just scumming up the bottom of the beaker.
When you start dating you start setting ground rules immediately, whether you mean to or not. Rules like “I let you go hang out with the guys every Friday” or “I will not tolerate polygamy” or “I will throw a major fit if the dirty clothes aren’t folded and sorted alphabetacally.”
Generally we make a decision to follow the rules or not-- to stay or to leave. The problems arise when we tacitly accept rules and then try to change them later. Our partner feels slighted.
This goes both ways. I agreed to put the seat down when my wife and I started dating. . For some deep psychological reason, I became unable to do it after our wedding day. I changed the rules so she has a right to be mad. She started complaining about clothes on the floor when her house had been festooned with dirty clothes.
The rest of it she knew, so she has no right to complain. YOu accept the terms, you live with them.
THe “lesson” goes both ways. Why can’t women learn that if they complain about something 10,000 times and the guy wont stop doing it that no amount of complaining is going to get him to change? If they could just see this, then they too would only worry about the big things–those things that are worth breaking up over.
Just my 2cents-
I used to be kind of weird about this stuff…Bugged my husband (who is a total neandrathal) all the time about picking up his dirty clothes, washing out glasses with milk on the bottom, etc. Then, a couple of months ago I saw him sprawled out on the road after being hit on his motorcycle. He was damned near killed, and now- amazingly- I don’t give a flying *uck if he puts his dirty clothes right in the front yard for God and everyone to see- I’m just glad he’s alive. I LIVE for “Don’t sweat the small stuff” now.
Priorities…
Blatent disrespect is a totally different story- I just wouldn’t be with someone who couldn’t pick up the phone to call if they’re running late or something. How rude can you be.
An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.
My point is that some of the things women bug men about is to AVOID such issues. Of course, I don’t mean that your husband did anything that would cause him to get hit. Sometimes you’re just in the wrong place at the wrong time regardless of how safety conscious you are. If you CAN do stuff to minimize the risk of tragedy, do it. Don’t drive recklessly or too fast or drive drunk. I know that my dad tends to drive like a maniac and my mother’s “Jay! Will you slow down!” is not only because she doesn’t want to have to pay a speeding ticket but also because she doesn’t fancy the idea of any of us being splattered across the highway due to his lead foot.
If the house is grimy and bugs and mice come in causing harm to the family’s health, that could have been avoided too. It’s hard enough to keep the flies, mosquitoes, and mice out without laying out a welcome mat, if you know what I mean.
Why invite suffering?
Rules of living together/Marriage.
2)There is no such thing as 50-50 in a relationship. Sometimes its 40-60, 20-80, 70-30 or 90-10. (Last night I had a migraine so the moment my husband came home from work he became the Keeper of the Child, while I wallowed in self pity in my dark bedroom. But on Saturdays he is gone all day helping a friend completely gut and refurbish an old house and I’m left to my own devices. The pendulum swings both ways.)
3)Flat surfaces must be covered with papers.
(Once I grasped this, I found myself much happier.)
The hardest part about housekeeping is not the cleaning, it is the picking up of the stuff. The key to a more organized house is either throw out more stuff on a regular basis or huge cupboards and closets to shove stuff in when people show up out of the blue.
You can’t have children and a clean house. Same goes for pets.
6)Review how often friends stop by or how often you entertain. Clean the night before. The sooner you start cleaning for the clambake, the quicker the house gets dirty.
I cannot tell you how many times I go to a friends house, unannounced and the woman will apologize for the mess.Actually it happens every time I go to a friends house. All that is messy, really, are the countertops and the stack of Sundays newspapers. I have never heard the husband ever apologize for the mess. If someone pops by my house unannounced, I will never apologize for the mess 1) first they are lucky enough to catch me at home 2) YOU ARE UNANNOUNCED and therefore, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. THIS IS HOW WE LIVE AND IF FIND ME LACKING AS A HUMAN BEING BECAUSE I DON’T DUST DAILY, SCRUB THE BABY AND DOG VOMIT OFF THE CARPET MORE THOROUGHLY OR COOK A FIVE COURSE MEAL, YOU ARE KINDLY INVITED TO GO FRICK YOURSELF AND YOU ARE NO FRIEND OF MINE.
(PS, when we can afford it, we are replacing the carpet with wood to make the bodily fluids and food catastrophes easier for clean up. Anyone caring to donate to the Shirley Ujest Gets some Wood fund …)
Oh yeah,
People who put white carpet and or furniture in their houses and have kids should be sterlized and are begging for a grape juice accident.
I thank you.
Understood, but I’ve stopped that carping, too. My husband is 34 years old, and he is an adult. If he chooses to drive too fast (I’m talking about his car- he was not at fault in the motorcycle accident) or whatever- that’s his choice. He’s a big boy. He actually has pretty good judgement, and if I really think his judgement is in question, we talk things out and come to a comprimise. No amount of nagging is going to change anyones behavior (in my opinion). I truely think you have to decide what’s important and talk about THOSE issues and leave the toilet paper/dirty clothes issues alone. Then again, my husband isn’t out drinking all night, drunk driving or doing any other major irresponsible acts, so I don’t really have to nag him.
My main point in my previous post was that it’s the little things that in the end don’t matter- and those are the very things that chip away at your love and respect for each other. I personally have chosen not to let those issues erode my marriage- dirty clothes and toilet paper be damned!
Just my opinion…
An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.
On a different thought, have you ever considered that the complaining about small things may be a sign that there are underlying issues that need to be addressed? I don’t know if this was mentioned earlier in the thread. What I mean is, “I hate my job and don’t feel like I have control over anything so I will complain about clothes on the floor”. I’m not saying it’s not a valid complaint just coming at it from a different angle, different idea.
Yes, but how happy will you be if he kills himself or someone else? If he kills someone else and you all get sued or he goes to jail and suddenly you’re left with your kids, no money, and possibly no husband, will you not blame him? The kids aren’t going to college. You’ll be lucky if you can pay their medical bills not to mention your own. They possibly won’t have a father or they may get to visit him in jail. Or what if you all are in the car with him and his reckless behavior causes a wreck and it kills your children? Or perhaps it kills both you and your husband and now your children have no parents.
I’m basically saying that people who drive like maniacs have no respect for other people. Now, I can understand having no respect for strangers. Most people are FAR too wrapped up in themselves to think about people they don’t know. If you kill me, oh well, tough luck for my mom, dad, sister, boyfriend, and friends. Screw 'em, ay? It’s the blatant disregard for your loved ones that I don’t understand. When you run around acting recklessly, it’s not only you and possibly some stranger who will suffer the consequences. Your family will too. You should know this. You almost lost your husband.
You know, if the motorcyclist was at fault, I would be the first to say you deserve compensation if you couldn’t afford the medical bills that your husband’s accident may have caused or if it had killed him and suddenly you’re left alone with three kids who now have no father. Or would you prefer I say, hey, your husband didn’t mean shit to me…tough luck for you and your kids?
Harping on him may not help but, then again, it gets my dad to slow down.
This also applies to women who drive like maniacs. Yes, I also realize that people make mistakes and that sometimes people break the speed limit and nothing goes wrong. I do know that there are people who chronically drive dangerously. They should not be allowed on the road. If they’re not caught, however, hopefully someone will talk some sense into them before they kill themselves or someone else. If you never say anything and one day you’re financially ruined or a member of your family is dead due to your husband’s reckless driving, I don’t have much sympathy for you. If he kills someone outside of your family, in my opinion, you might have prevented it and didn’t and, therefore, I think you played a part in that person’s death.
The problem is the definition of “driving like a maniac.” FOr some this means that you don’t slow to a stop at green lights just in case someone might be running the red. For others it may mean signaling 300 yards before a turn.
That’s the problem…your maniac maybe be my safe driver.
Hello??? Did I miss something?? Let me try this again.
1- My husband does not actually drive like a maniac (I was using that as an example- a poor one I admit)
2- My point is, my husband was almost killed by another driver. The person was not speeding, he was not reckless, it was just an accident. File it under “shit happens”.
3.- After this comment, I’m leaving this discussion because for the third time I’m making the same friggin’ point that still is not understood
Since I almost lost my husband, I no longer give a shit if the toilet paper is on right or if he throws dirty laundry around. I’m just glad he’s here and we have an opportunity to enjoy each other**
That’s all I’m saying here- nothing to do with reckless driving or whatever. I personally wouldn’t be married to someone who had blatent disregard for myself or others. Maybe I’m just lucky. And, I agree wholeheartedly with BunnyGirl-
<<<<On a different thought, have you ever considered that the complaining about small things may be a sign that there are underlying issues that need to be addressed>>>
Oh, and Toplino- don’t ever lecture me-
<<<<You should know this. You almost lost your husband.>>>>> Your post was rude and condescending. Try re-reading my posts- maybe you’ll get my point. I couldn’t have spelled it out any better.