Sigh, I can’t believe you’re continuing to make yourself look like a massive hypocrite by defending Germany.
There are around four million ethnic Turks living in Germany, the overwhelming majority of whom were born there. In fact many have lived there for at least two generations.
Recently Germany did yield to international pressure and give those Turks born in Germany the ability to apply for citizenship, but they had to specifically renounce their nationality and declare themselves to be “fully German”.
Basically, this would be the equivalent of Israel saying Palestinians could immigrate to Israel and become Israel citizens if they renounced being Palestinian and converted to Judaism, which of course, they already can.
Damuri, you really have no idea what the region is like do you.
How could an Israeli citizen and a Lebanese citizen get married and have a child in Lebanon?
Israeli citizens aren’t allowed in Lebanon. In fact, anyone entering Lebanon with an Israel stamp on it gets stopped from entering. That’s why the State Department recommends Americans in the region get two different passports.
So no, Israeli citizens can’t become Lebanese citizens, or at least Jewish Israelis can’t. It’s probably a different story with the Arab Israelis.
Nor is Lebanon the only country in the region prohibiting Israeli citizens entry.
Qatar doesn’t allow Israeli tennis players to compete in their tennis tournaments and has forbidden soccer teams with Israeli citizens from entering.
Yeah I saw that. You saw the part where they were shooting them right?
I think the Palestinian argument would be more compelling if they weren’t throwing rocks but I would be equally upset if our border patrol started killing civilians who were trying to cross our borders.
Yes, you’re right. If a mob of hundreds of Mexicans calling for the destruction of America crossed the border and attacked the border patrol(which is how the events are described in the Guardian) then the border patrol probably would not respond with bullets and teargas.
The issue of land ownership is not as simple as you make it out. As this article pionts out http://www.beki.org/landlaw.html there were several forms of real property interests. Mulk is what we allunderstand asw fee simple and this was pretty much the only form of land that could be sold to non-muslims. Another form of interest in real property was called Miri and this took several forms from communal ownership (land owned by a village) to individual usufructs that could be passed down to heirs but could not be sold to strangers. As the article points out, Miri constituted the vast majority of real property interests. The third major type of land was Mawat, wilderness, land that could be converted to Miri through cultivation or given as Mulk by the Sultan.
" Mīrī included “by far the largest portion of the landed property in Palestine.”
So if you restrict the concept of ownership to mulk, then yeah, almost no Palestinians owned Mulk because it was designed to be owned by non-muslims but the largest portion of the usable land in Palestine was Miri and Palestinian muslims had the usufructs to that land. If you think that communal ownership doesn’t really count or that a usufruct that can be passed down to your son’s doesn’t really count as ownership then I guess you would be right but its hardly as simple as you seem to portray.
The CURRENT law requires renouncing other citizenship, how is the transition rule any different. How in the world is the transition rule (which you apparently didn’t know existed or deliberately neglected to mention) asking the Turks to renounce citizenship and calling themselves Germans like asking palestinians to convert to judaism?
Just admit when you’re wrong, do it long enough and you might gain some credibility some day… credibility is earned. not by being correct all the time but by being correctable.
Well, that’s a relief. We make progress. Slow and painful, but it is there.
Again, I’ll point out that in Germany, actual children born in Germany were denied citizenship based on their Turkish ethnicity - in short, the Germans were doing exactly what you (incorrectly, you now acknowledge) accused Israelis of doing!
Yet, accusations of Germany as an “aparthied state” are few and far between - compared with similar accusations directed at Israel.
This is the sort of double-standards based on false information which is extremely frustrating. Yes, there is a legitmate debate about whether Israeli denial of citizenship to Palestinians based on “family unification” grounds is legitimate or not - but look how hard it was to even get to the point at which we could discuss the real, actual issue, obscured as it was by false-to-the-facts (and highly inflammatory) claims about ‘racist’ denial of citizenship to arab kiddies!
There are, in fact, all sorts of real concerns about the treatment of arabs in Israel (to mention but two - the allocation of educational resources is highly uneven to the detriment of arab citizens and the provision of benefits to army veterans may, it can be argued, discriminate against arabs). But these are the sort of issues that many countries experience - including such “paragons” as my own country, Canada (see its treatment of first nations).
Sigh. I’m not claiming that shooting at or tear gassing a mob of rock-wielding people attempting to crash the border is a good thing (though I question whether attacking a border outpost anywhere would produce a different response), but rather your charactrization of the incident, to quote:
The “put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave” implies the Israelis are, literally, imprisioning these protesters, and murdering them when they attempt to escape - which I think everyone would acknowledge is really bad behaviour.
However, it is the opposite of what is happening here - a mob is attacking the border. While shooting at or gassing a mob attacking your border may well be objectionable behaviour, I think pretty well everyone would acknowledge it isn’t anywhere near as bad as imprisoning folks and killing them if they attempt to escape.
Again, there is this tendency to portray Israeli acts in the worst possible light, even if it is not true to the facts.
Damuri if you’re going to lecture me about being “credible” could you please work on your spelling and capitalization.
If you’re going to insult me please do so properly.
Moreover, yes telling the children of Turkish immigrants born in Germany they can only become German citizens if they formally renounce being Turkish and declare themselves “full Germans” would be like telling Arabs born in Israel they can only be citizens if they apply for it and formally renounce being Palestinian and making them convert to Judaism is certainly comparable to making ethnic Turks declare themselves full Germans.
Why do you think most of Germany’s Turks have rejected this disgusting racist law which you apparently embrace.
Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired. You should work on them.
Please tell me you’re not upset at Malthus and I revealing how you blatantly mischaracterized what was in the article. I invite everyone to check the link to see just how badly Damuri misrepresented it.
Also you appear to be conceding that if a mob attempted to cross the border and attack the border patrol the border patrol would respond with force.
Well fuck Geramny for that policy as well. Anyone want to take the other side? No? Well, that’s why there’s not a lot of threads about it.
How many times do you want me to admit the mistake? There was nothing nefarious about my position. I read the wiki article and I read the cite in the cite to the newspaper article in the wiki article and it confirmed the the position. It could have been corrected pages ago but I had to look up the law myself and read it to figure out where the wiki article and the supporting newspaper article went wrong.
Still the fact remains that Israel restricts naturalization through marriage to Palestinians alone. Like I said still bad but not as egregious as denying citizenship to people born in israel based on their parentage.
For me its a combination of things. Some of it is the neocon agenda. Some of it is the violence created there spilling onto our shores. Some of it is the injustice to the Palestinians. Some of it is the rabidity of its defenders.
In America you have to renounce any other citizenship before you can become an American citizen. Perhaps its a matter of perspective but renouncing old citizenship before acquiring a new one never seemed disgusting and racist to me, YMMV. I had to do this when I naturalized and I don’t see why this is an unreasonable request. Why should I be able to keep mental reservations about what nation I am a citizen of and where my loyalties lie before I can call myself a citizen of that country?
I know we make the Turks who emigrate here do exactly that and I have not heard cries of racism over it.
Short answer is taht as long as they have the same requirement for everyone and don’t single out the Turks for this treatment and there is no discrimination in intent or effect, the fact that Turks might find it offensive is not really Germany’s problem.
Also, comparisons to the Mexican border are irrelevant, because it’s a border with a friendly nation. Israel, OTOH, is at *war *with Syria and Lebanon, which mean it is fully within its rights to kill anyone attempting to cross the frontier. Have you noticed that Israel doesn’t shoot people crossing from Jordan and Egypt? That’s because we have peace treaties with those two countries. As a soldier, I’ve patrolled both the Lebanese and the Jordanian borders, and I can tell you that the rules of engagement for the two areas were *radically *different.
The reason there is not a lot of discussion about the matter is that few know about it, and even fewer care.
It isn’t the case that everyone knows about the situation, and are all unanimous in their opinion, so there is no controversy.
In fact, earlier in this very thread you threw down the challenge:
Obviously, you would not have asked the question, had you known about the German situation. You are not unique in this: few, aside from those affected, appear to; apparently it isn’t a big deal, engaging multiple sessions of the UN General Council, or major protests by the left-leaning outside of Germany itself.
The issue is - why? Is it because we expect better of Israelis than Germans, or because Turks are not as important as Palestinians, or what?
I’m not claiming your motives were bad - I’m saying that, on the left, there exists an overall willingness to believe, and pass on, characterizations of ME events which are both negative to Israel and factually incorrect.
In this very thread, you have done so at least three times:
(1) the claim that Israel denies arab-born children citizenship when they are born in Israel;
(2) the characterization of Israel’s response to border incident as Israel “put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave”; and
(3) more understandably, the claim that the Palestinians no longer seek the destruction of Israel (this only became untrue this very month, and even then, it’s a bit unsettled).
I’m not picking on you, though. I simply think you are typical of many on the left, and I am citing your posts as examples of an overall trend.
Not "to Palestinians alone’ but to citizens of certain jurisdictions, which include Palestinians (though naturally this mostly affects Palestinians); and as of the last couple of years, they have eased off in terms of application.
The issue here is that the Israelis claim that such naturalizations are often not “genuine”. IMO that is not a good enough rationale for their approach, as the “genuine-ness” can, surely, be determined on a case-by-case basis by some sort of neutral arbiter.
That being noted, making naturalization by non-citizens from one part of the world more difficult from that from another is hardly a unique Israeli trait.
People certainly don’t have to give up their previous citizenship to become naturalized US citizens.
My father didn’t and the US is filled with dual citizens.
I also think it’s hilarious that after bashing Germany you’re now saying you have no problem with Germany refusing to grant citizenship to people born in Germany unless renounce Tylurkish citizenship.
And yes Damuri, they do single out Turks. Americans of German descent can get German citizenship without losing their American citizenship.
I’m amused to see that in addition to not undrstanding the concept of logic you’ve essentially admitted you don’t care about Muslims being discriminated against so long as the people discriminating against them aren’t Jews.
Yes, and it’s precisely because of this that I and a lot of other people have a really hard time believing these guys when they say “really, I’m not anti-Semitic! I’m not! I’m just against Israeli policy!” when it’s goddamn obvious that they never criticize or even bring up any of the other many countries that are doing the same shit and far, far worse.
“Although naturalizing citizens are required to undertake an oath renouncing previous allegiances, the oath has never been enforced to require the actual termination of original citizenship.[24]”
This must be what I am thinking about. So I must still be a citizen of my country of origin. Still telling people that they have to renounce their citizenship to become citizens doesn’t bother me. if the alw said “all Turks have to renounce their citizenship to become Gemran citizens” then i would have a problem.
Well, I guess don’t have a problem with forcing people to renounce citizenship as long as it is evenly applied.
Well than i am back to saying fuck Germany. They are being discriminatory.
I’m not OK with anyone being discriminated against. How you got that from what I said is a mystery to me.
Like I said its a really wierd version of tu quoque where you aren’t holding up my own actions as an example of my hypocrisy, you are holding up OTHER people’s actions as an example of my hypocrisy.
If you can’t defend your actions, then you can’t defend your actions regardless of whether others would have even MORE trouble defending their actions.