Left wing antisemitism

[Argent_Towers]

I’m not saying you’re a hypocrite. If you were the dictator of a country and practiced brutal policies against people, or something like that, then yes, I would say you are a hypocrite for condemning Israel. To be a hypocrite, you have to personally be doing something or be supporting something that goes against the principles that you profess. I’m not accusing you of doing that.

I just think it’s very, very odd that Israel and only Israel seems to draw so much ire from a certain segment of the left. DA, I’m not even holding you up as an example of those people, but they definitely exist…go to any college campus or just spend a few minutes browsing Facebook groups.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

The reason there is not a lot of discussion about the matter is that few know about it, and even fewer care.

It isn’t the case that everyone knows about the situation, and are all unanimous in their opinion, so there is no controversy.

When the situation with the Turks in Germany become a root cause for people flying planes into our buildings, it will probably get attention.

In fact, earlier in this very thread you threw down the challenge:

Yeah, OK so fuck Germany right alongside Israel. Does that satisfy equity?

Obviously, you would not have asked the question, had you known about the German situation. You are not unique in this: few, aside from those affected, appear to; apparently it isn’t a big deal, engaging multiple sessions of the UN General Council, or major protests by the left-leaning outside of Germany itself.

The issue is - why? Is it because we expect better of Israelis than Germans, or because Turks are not as important as Palestinians, or what?

Like I have said, being able to point to a worse offender doesn’t make your hands clean. I have listed several reasons for why I think israel get criticized the reason isn’t just because israel is the "Worst Country in the World"tm

I’m not claiming your motives were bad - I’m saying that, on the left, there exists an overall willingness to believe, and pass on, characterizations of ME events which are both negative to Israel and factually incorrect.

In this very thread, you have done so at least three times:

(1) the claim that Israel denies arab-born children citizenship when they are born in Israel;

Yes but they still have discriminatory marriage laws

(2) the characterization of Israel’s response to border incident as Israel “put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave”; and

I didn’t mean to characterize them as engaging in genocide but the analogy why hyperbolic is not that hard to see, is it?

(3) more understandably, the claim that the Palestinians no longer seek the destruction of Israel (this only became untrue this very month, and even then, it’s a bit unsettled).

I think that its been true for years. Hamas has offered 10 year hudnas so i guess they could conceivably maintain position saying ‘lets destroy israel… in ten years’

I’m not picking on you, though. I simply think you are typical of many on the left, and I am citing your posts as examples of an overall trend.

I am always happy to be enlightened.

Not "to Palestinians alone’ but to citizens of certain jurisdictions, which include Palestinians (though naturally this mostly affects Palestinians); and as of the last couple of years, they have eased off in terms of application.

cite

That being noted, making naturalization by non-citizens from one part of the world more difficult from that from another is hardly a unique Israeli trait.

Yes but you rarely have natrualization based on marriage distinguish based on the origin of the spouse. For example, America has (or had) different quotas for immigration from different countries but if you married someone, it really didn’t matter what country they were from.

[An_Gadai]

@Argent_Towers

I just think it’s very, very odd that Israel and only Israel seems to draw so much ire from a certain segment of the left.

A certain segment? What size? I mean I’m sure there are left-wing Antisemites out there but unless you’re saying that broad swathes of the left is antisemitic I don’t know why you’d even find it interesting that some were. There are, unfortunately, Antisemites of nearly every political hue.

I think Israel is held to a higher standard than other countries, but it’s because it’s a western country and the aforementioned ubiquity of coverage of that region in the media. By contrast, events such as Africa’s Great War get relatively little coverage. Similarly, the Burmese junta isn’t reported on all that much. Israel is an important, mainstream, developed, democracy and a key ally of the US in that region, of course it’s going to get more scrutiny and attract more criticism than your average tinpot dictatorship.

[Farmer_Jane]

[QUOTE]

@Damuri_Ajashi

They would be eligible by virtue of their marriage (and some residency requirement) but they would be eligible. Not true for the Palestinian spouse of an Israeli citizen, that spouse would never be able to get citizenship under the current law.

Again, it’s perfectly reasonable for Israel to have immigration laws. Every country does. Considering the aim of the PLO and Hamas is to ‘Islamize’ Israel and they are at war, it’s actually pretty fuckin’ reasonable.

If you are born to an Israeli citizen unless your other parent is a Palestinian. This rule only extends for one generation for children born outside of Israel but it applies evenly to all Israeli citizens unless they marry a palestinian.

You just confused me. Please cite the laws, okay? I can’t untangle your mess.

btw, Jordan revoked the citizenship of many Palestinians in Jordan (they controlled the WB for 20 years) on the request of the PLO. Palestinians are also criticized by other Arab nations for accepting Israeli citizenship. (Many have refused.)

The Palestinians can’t have it three ways. Why, in their ever-determined quest for “independence”, do some want Israeli citizenship as the anti-Palestinian groups cry foul? Do they need a welfare check?

But when some do request it, they are criticized.

When Israel offers it, sometimes they refuse.

And yet the pro-Palestinian groups are al nakba this, al nakba that, give us back our land, we reject your government! (Oh PS: can we have citizenship when it is politically expedient?)

I see no human rights violation by Israel there.

Seriously, I’m still waiting for these groups to complain about Egypt’s treatment of Gaza or Jordan’s treatment of Palestinians, or Syria & Lebanon’s horrible camp conditions.

No one wants the Palestinians. The world gives their leadership billions of $$ and what do they have to show for it? Why can’t the leadership get their shit together and stop oppressing their own people?!

Squalor. They’d rather see their people live in shit than actually be productive. Abbas gave as an almost shred of hope since he was the least worst of the very worst, but he just blew it to smithereens by aligning with Hamas.

[Farmer_Jane]

@ElvisL1ves

And you should similarly have no trouble finding maps of “Eretz Israel” including the entire West Bank.

Eretz Yisrael is not the State of Israel, nor is it Israeli policy. Eretz Yisrael is the biblical Israel.

You use the “confused” smiley in regard to a discussion about leaders having both the vision and courage to make peace? That says something.

No. It says what you don’t know about Begin. He was the founder of the Likud party you seem to detest - and a hardcore Zionist and militant in the War for Independence. So…no…I’m not getting what your point was.

[ElvisL1ves]

@Argent_Towers

Why do all these people, who have no personal connection whatsoever to anything that goes on in Palestine

But we do. They’re our fellow humans. That’s what gives us a “personal connection”. And you have one too, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[ElvisL1ves]

@CitizenPained

Eretz Yisrael is not the State of Israel, nor is it Israeli policy. Eretz Yisrael is the biblical Israel.

As you know, there is a strong movement, or at least a strong sentiment, that the description in the Bible gives Israel a “right” to all the land that would otherwise constitute Palestine. As you know, Israel, or at least its current elected government and those who voted it in, does have a policy of supporting the colonization of that land, in the expectation of its eventual annexation.

IOW quit kidding yourself and address the point.

No. It says what you don’t know about Begin. He was the founder of the Likud party you seem to detest - and a hardcore Zionist in the War for Independence. So…no…I’m not getting what your point was.

The fucking point is that he had the vision and courage to fucking make peace with Egypt. He fucking took the chance because he fucking knew it was the right thing to do and had to be done.

If you can’t even fucking comprehend what that was all about, well, that’s part of the fucking problem, now isn’t it?

[Farmer_Jane]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So if an Israeli marries a Lebanese and has a child in lebanon, then that child will be denied citizenship and be removed from the country at age 12 while the child of a Lebanese parent and a non Israeli parent will be eligible for citizenship?

Cite please, because this is all I could find and Lebanese natinality laws seem sexist but does not seem to target the children of Israeli parents versus Turkish parents.

I wasn’t aware that Israelis were allowed in Lebanon. Oh yeah - they ARE NOT.

I know I’d have a hard time getting into Lebanon with my current PASSPORT STAMPS. :dubious:

[Farmer_Jane]

@ElvisL1ves

As you know, there is a strong movement, or at least a strong sentiment, that the description in the Bible gives Israel a “right” to all the land that would otherwise constitute Palestine. As you know, Israel, or at least its current elected government and those who voted it in, does have a policy of supporting the colonization of that land, in the expectation of its eventual annexation.

You’re talking about a fringe group who thinks that ALL of Israel, territories, parts of Syria & Lebanon are ‘rightfully theirs’.

wtf.

The **fucking point is that he had the vision and courage to fucking make peace with Egypt. He fucking **took the chance because he fucking knew it was the right thing to do and had to be done.

If you can’t even fucking comprehend what that was all about, well, that’s part of the **fucking **problem, now isn’t it?

No, I think the problem is:

1. You can’t make a ‘point’ without swearing, and
2. You missed my sincere confusion. Since Begin was part of the Hagnuah faction that is potentially responsible (one will never know, I guess, but the pro-Pal argument has been made) for the supposed murder of some Arabs during the war and it IS known he was the rival of Ben-Gurion, I didn’t know which part of his lifetime you were referring to.

I am sorry if you are deficient in Israeli history. Don’t lambast me for your ignorance.

[Farmer_Jane]

@ElvisL1ves

But we do. They’re our fellow humans. That’s what gives us a “personal connection”. And you have one too, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

Tell that to these people.

Sixty two and a half percent of the Arab citizens of Israel believe that Jews are a foreign imprint on the Middle East and are destined to be replaced by Palestinians, and 61.4% believe that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state, according to a nationwide survey scheduled for release on Sunday.

[ElvisL1ves]

@CitizenPained

You’re talking about a fringe group who thinks that ALL of Israel, territories, parts of Syria & Lebanon are ‘rightfully theirs’.

And has the support of the government via the “settlements” colonization program, and the support of the people who put that government in place, IOW the plurality of Israel’s voting population. As already explained and ignored.

You missed my sincere confusion.

Not at all. Your confusion is quite obviously sincere.

I am sorry if you are deficient in Israeli history. Don’t lambast me for your ignorance.

If you don’t even know about the peace treaty with Egypt, much less about how it came about, then the ignorance is not mine.

[Farmer_Jane]

@ElvisL1ves

Not at all. Your confusion is quite obviously sincere.

If you don’t even know about the peace treaty with Egypt, much less about how it came about, then the ignorance is not mine.

I am well versed in Israel’s wars. You seemed to think of Begin as…some kind of moral hero or something. With all of your virulent rhetoric, I figured you were speaking negatively of him.

What exactly do you make of this?

Some humanity.

Those serving sentences of more than 20 years will receive higher salaries, according to the new PA law. Salaries are to be paid from the day of arrest until release.

The PMW report points out that more than 6,000 Palestinians are currently serving time in Israeli prisons for terror- related offenses.

Among those now eligible for salaries are Abdullah Barghouti, serving 67 life sentences for acts that include planning the Sbarro restaurant (2001) and Moment cafe (2002) suicide bombings in Jerusalem; Hassan Salameh, serving 38 life sentences for offenses that include planning a series of 1996 bus bombings; and Jamal Abu al-Hijja, serving nine life sentences for planning 2005 bombings in Hadera and Netanya.

The new PA law stipulates that payment “will be implemented…on the basis of available sources of funding.”

Awesome. Increase salaries of convicted terrorists. :rolleyes: Killing Jews Pays When you Vote PA!

[ElvisL1ves]

@CitizenPained

I am well versed in Israel’s wars. You seemed to think of Begin as…some kind of moral hero or something. With all of your virulent rhetoric, I figured you were speaking negatively of him.

Then the responsibility for your confusion is entirely your own.

Now do please go study the history Israel-Egypt peace treaty before your confusion spreads further.

What exactly do you make of this?

Some humanity.

Denying the humanity of your fellow humans is a certain way to ensure the continuation of violence. Not to mention that it demonstrates a far deeper confusion and ignorance on your part than can be addressed on a mere message board.

[Farmer_Jane]

@ElvisL1ves

Then the responsibility for your confusion is entirely your own.

Now do please go study the history Israel-Egypt peace treaty before your confusion spreads further.

Again, I’m sorry you don’t understand Israeli political history enough to get the joke.

[tomndebb]

CitizenPained and ElvisL1ves, take your bickering to the BBQ Pit.

Endless rounds of “nuh uh” and “you’re the real poopyhead” are doing nothing to promote a discussion in this thread.

[ /Moderating ]

[tomndebb]

And while we’re on the subject, Ibn Warraq and Damuri Ajashi, you can each stop making snide personal remarks about the other, as well.

[ /Moderating ]

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

When the situation with the Turks in Germany become a root cause for people flying planes into our buildings, it will probably get attention.

Yeah, OK so fuck Germany right alongside Israel. Does that satisfy equity?

Like I have said, being able to point to a worse offender doesn’t make your hands clean. I have listed several reasons for why I think israel get criticized the reason isn’t just because israel is the "Worst Country in the World"tm

Yes but they still have discriminatory marriage laws

I didn’t mean to characterize them as engaging in genocide but the analogy why hyperbolic is not that hard to see, is it?

I think that its been true for years. Hamas has offered 10 year hudnas so i guess they could conceivably maintain position saying ‘lets destroy israel… in ten years’

I am always happy to be enlightened.

cite

Yes but you rarely have natrualization based on marriage distinguish based on the origin of the spouse. For example, America has (or had) different quotas for immigration from different countries but if you married someone, it really didn’t matter what country they were from.

For a cite to the relaxation of the application of Israel’s family reunification laws, note that in 2005 they were relaxed so that they only applied to young folks - allegedly, on the assumption that few suicide bombers were middle-aged.

Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law

The law originated in a 2002 Cabinet order freezing the issuance of citizenship on family reunification grounds between Israeli citizens and residents of areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Renewal of the law’s effect in mid-2005 relaxed some of its condition by restricting its scope to those families where the husband is under 35 years of age and the wife is under 25 years old.

As for naturalization based on family reunification in other countries - it is a pretty well-known fact that the difficulty of obtaining this varies depending on the country of origin in many cases: the example I know about is obtaining such from eastern europe is difficult in Canada, because there is a high fear of false applicants. The Israeli situation is only unique in having a publicly-stated policy, rather than an informal one.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@tomndebb

And while we’re on the subject, Ibn Warraq and Damuri Ajashi, you can each stop making snide personal remarks about the other, as well.

[ /Moderating ]

What snide remarks? Have I been making snide remarks anywhere near as frequently as Ibn? Did I start with the snide remarks? Have my snide remarks been more virulent than Ibn’s snide remarks?

Is this some sort of effort to not point fingers by pointing a finger at me alongside Ibn?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Damuri_Ajashi

What snide remarks? Have I been making snide remarks anywhere near as frequently as Ibn? Did I start with the snide remarks? Have my snide remarks been more virulent than Ibn’s snide remarks?

Is this some sort of effort to not point fingers by pointing a finger at me alongside Ibn?

Er, you were the one who decided to restart your tired old game of implying that I’m Finn’s sock and then made the blantantly and almost certainly deliberately false statement claiming that I was “soooo sure” that this citizenship law didn’t exist.

Admittedly, you eventually admitted after it was repeatedly pointed out to you that you didn’t understand the citizenship law.

You can certainly complain about the way I responded to your insults but you were the one who chose to address me not the other way around.

Anyway, I’m at work and bored of this subject anyway so I’d recommend following Tom’s advice and take this elsewhere if you’re still upset at how badly I ripped apart your arguments.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Ibn_Warraq

Er, you were the one who decided to restart your tired old game of implying that I’m Finn’s sock and then made the blantantly and almost certainly deliberately false statement claiming that I was “soooo sure” that this citizenship law didn’t exist.

Admittedly, you eventually admitted after it was repeatedly pointed out to you that you didn’t understand the citizenship law.

You can certainly complain about the way I responded to your insults but you were the one who chose to address me not the other way around.

Anyway, I’m at work and bored of this subject anyway so I’d recommend following Tom’s advice and take this elsewhere if you’re still upset at how badly I ripped apart your arguments.

I may have been insulting you by comparing you to Finn but I don’t think you are Finn’s sock, I just think you have a similar style of argument as Finn. You are much more interested in shutting down your opposition than you are in presenting the entire truth.

I did not engage you. You engaged me. See post 247.

Comparing your snarkiness to mine is false equivalence.