Legal Rights When Exiting a Store.

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=Cardinal]
Wow, that really proves the point of “It all depends where you are.” I had never heard that a merchant might have the power to detain.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a fairly well-established doctrine, as was discussed in the earlier thread. For example, as cited by Bricker, it certainly exists in Virginia. I’d bet there’s some version of the concept in most states. But, as we’ve said, there has to be some reasonable basis for the detention. A merchant can’t just detain anyone he wants to.

(Disclaimer time) I’m not your lawyer, and you’re not my client. Everything I’ve said in these threads is general information, and not meant as reliable legal advice applicable to anyone’s individual situation. See a lawyer licensed in your state (who can discuss your specific issues with you) for that.

22

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
From my perspective, here is what is wrong with your claim:

(Emphasis added.)

This is false. Period. They don’t need the beep. The beep is a safe-harbor under some statutes. What they generally need is probable cause (or whatever common law or statute says they need). Under the VA statute the beep creates automatic probable cause. Without it, the merchant can still detain you if it has probable cause to do so. I think that’s what Random was talking about.
[/QUOTE]

The OP made it very clear “Every now and then one of those beeping security things goes off when I’m leaving a store after making a purchase.” He didn’t say anything about “after being seen stuffing my pockets with merchandise” or anything else that would give the hypothetical merchant in *this *thread Pprobaable Cause. Thus, no “beep” no “probable cause”, thus no right to stop- *under the question posed by the OP. * Thus, under the question posed by the OP- they need the “beep”.

23

[QUOTE=Random]
Setting off the alarm is just one way to establish probable cause* to detain.

Contrary to what you said before, it isn’t the only way. You can’t necessarily tell the store “to get stuffed” just because there’s no beep.

  1. Your first post is wrong because you said “Normal retail stores really can’t stop you unless they are willing to make a citizens arrest.” That’s incorrect, because you are improperly equating a merchant’s stop/detention with a citizen’s arrest. They aren’t necessarily the same thing. In fact, in my state (Illinois), the statute that establishes the merchant’s right to detain (which I cited in one of the earlier threads) also states that “a detention as permitted in this Article does not constitute an arrest…” (720 ILSC 5/16A-6). Citizen’s arrests are something else.

Although it’s possible that other states may define a merchant’s right to detain as a type of citizen’s arrest, they aren’t usually considered to be the same thing. More generally, in criminal law, a detention is not the same as an arrest. A detention can take place even is there is no legal basis for an outright arrest.

  1. How did I take what you originally said on this point “out of context”? Please explain.

  2. Setting off an alarm is not the only way to create the basis for the detention. See first part of my reply, above. Also see the prior threads.
    )
    [/QUOTE]

True. But it’s the only one under question by the OP. If he had asked “are there circumstance under which the merchant can detain me” then yes, there are many other circumstance which could give PC. However, under the hypothetical posed by the OP, there is only one point- the “beep”- and yes, the “beep” can and usually does give the merchant PC.

Thus, if there is no “beep” under the terms of the question posed by the OP- there is no PC thus you can tell them to “get stuffed”. Merchants can NOT just demand random searches without PC. If a merchant is demanding that every customer that leavse show a reciept, you certainly can tell him to “get stuffed”. (In the limited and special case of it being a membership store, he can revoke your membership, yes)

If they do not have PC and they don’t make a citizens arrest, please list the crimes has a merchant commited by detaining you. Thus, they can’t legally stop you without one or the other. In fact, without PC, a “citizens arrest” becomes very problematic.

24

[QUOTE=Random]

  1. Maybe you missed where I said “See prior threads”? That’s a cite.
    Other posts in that thread had other more actual legal cites. Your posts didn’t. (Vague references to half-remembered “consumer help column[s]” in the “local San Jose Mecury news” are not cites. Actual, legal, or otherwise. Not in GQ, not in the legal world, and not in Highlights for Children.)

  2. You didn’t get it the the earlier thread, despite a direct response to you by Bricker, and posts by at least 3 lawyers citing legal authority. You still don’t get it, yet you continue to post.

  3. The “normal conventions around here” hold that you don’t post half-remembered nonsense or half-assed guesses about legal topics. Want a cite for that? Here you go: Minors can only contract for Necessities? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board
    [/QUOTE]

Yes, those are cites. And nice ones too. But where do those cites say I am wrong? In fact, if you see Brickers post #68 in that thread, he admited I was right and he was wrong- "*If the business had fraudulently set the alarm to go off every single time, then I suppose a court could find that the device was not an actual electronic article surveillance device within the meaning of the law.

I took your “every single time” to be hyperbole. But yes, I grant that if the device were going off every single time, then it’s not really an electronic article surveillance device."*

There is nothing cited by anyone saying that a merchant has the legal right to stop or detain you without probable cause. Thus, if what he is doing is demaning to see reciepts of all cutomers as they leave (see your post # 21) "… *If someone refused to show a receipt, I doubt Costco would do anything physical to restrain him (absent other probable cause to detain), but I’m confident that his membership would be cancelled…

I’m not as cooperative at certain other places, such as Home Depot. There’s no advance agreement, and not everyone is stopped. It’s personnel are more demanding and less polite. I will generally show my receipt, but I am less patient, and will leave without showing it if there are undue delays.*" then you can tell them to “get stuffed”. If I am wrong, please give me a cite which says a merchant has the right (barring memberships stores) to demand random searches WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE. In fact, if you read Gfactor’s post #18, he says exactly that: "3. Automatically or randomly searching customers or demanding proof that they are not shoplifters does not fall under this privilege because the merchant has no probable cause. Probable cause requires some basis to conclude that a crime has been committed. http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/315/315lect06.htm"

Thus, not only did I cite the Consumer Expert in the San Jose Mercury news, but my point was indirectly backed by you, and directly backed by Gfactor. Thus, unless evryone has changed their minds, and somehow the US Consitiution does hold if you are a Merchant- I get it. The Merchant *must *have Probable cuase, The “beep” (in most cases) gives him that Probable cause. “Random searches” or “Routine Searches” are NOT probable cause.

You’re not a Mod. My “half-remembered nonsense or half-assed guesses about legal topics” were based upon you own words, and the cites given ny others in that htread. Do you dispute Gfactor’s cite and opinion?

25

[QUOTE=Random]
But, as we’ve said, there has to be some reasonable basis for the detention. A merchant can’t just detain anyone he wants to.

.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Nor can a merchant do random or routine searches without that same reasonable basis, correct?

Random- are you really going to tell me that a merchant has the right to stop you and demand to see your reciept* or search you without “reasonable basis” or “probable cause”? That random or routine searches give the merchant the right to detain his customers? :dubious:

  • excepting Membership stores
26

And, since there are some lawyers here that are going to say “but you didn’t say…”- yes, there are other things that will give the merchant probable cause- in general most of them are obvious things like being seen stuffing your pockets with merchandise. However, unless you are completely brain dead, I think all the posters here on the SDMB know that stealing is a crime, and the merchant has the right to try and prevent it. I didn’t think that needed to be spelled out- unless perhaps you are a lawyer.

What the OP is asking about is when he has NOT commited a crime, and there is no probable cause other than the beep.

27

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Thus, if there is no “beep” under the terms of the question posed by the OP- there is no PC thus you can tell them to “get stuffed”.
[etc. etc.]

[/QUOTE]

So even though your first post here seemingly made blanket, unqualified statements about the law, you really meant everything in your post to apply only to the narrow situation posed by the OP. In other words, we are to assume that the alarm has sounded, and we must assume that nothing else that the OP did could possibly be suspicious?

And, therefore, you now contend that everything in your first post is accurate, if we use those assumptions?

Nice try, but no.

Let’s look at what you said in that first post. Let’s take each of your claims the order that they appear.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Normal retail stores really can’t stop you unless they are willing to make a citizens arrest.
[/QUOTE]

Nope. We’ve already disposed of this contention. In Illinois, any reasonable basis allows a merchant to detain. An alarm would certainly be sufficient. Detention is not arrest. See my cite. Bricker has cited law from Virginia that would allow a similar investigatory stop. Someone else has cited analogous law from California. Even if you could cite law from the other 47 states that shows that merchants can’t detain unless they make a citizen’s arrest, your blanket statement of the law here is wrong. And you haven’t cited law from 47 states. You haven’t even cited law from one state supporting your position.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
The beeping, however does give them considerable protection…

[/QUOTE]

Considerable? It absolutely allows a detention. (barring ridiculous hypotheticals like that one you pose later.)

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
…as long as they stop everyone that beeps…

[/QUOTE]

Cite?

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
and they don’t know their system is defective (for example if they know it always goes off, then it no longer is a real alarm, is it?).

[/QUOTE]

Spare me the nonsensical hypotheticals. Has this ever happened anywhere? An alarm that goes off when each and every customer leaves? The only reason you came up with this, is because Bricker cornered you in the other thread. If it makes you happy, I agree that an alarm that constantly sounds isn’t a reasonable basis to detain. But an occasional false positive? There’s still a basis to detain.

Besides, I thought we were strictly limiting ourselves to what the OP said. Where did this always-goes-off fact come from?

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
If they only stop black dudes when the alarm goes off and wave off white dudes, then they could be in real trouble.
[/quote]

Yeah, that might open the merchant up to an equal protection or similar claim. Please explain how that makes any particular stop invalid.

Also, please show me where the OP set forth this fact.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Best thing to do when the beep goes off is turn around, look confused and wave at them, maybe give them a “thumbs up”. Then go on, without running.
[/quote]

Huh? Where did this come from? You’ve been told, again and again, that an alarm may permit a detention. In the other thread, it’s been pointed out that the detention can be physical. Sure, you can try to keep on walking. It might work. Probably will in many cases. But you can be stopped if the merchant choose to do so, in the states that have been cited. You seem to be saying (or at least implying) otherwise. You are giving advice that’s dangerously incomplete.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
However, a Membership store- of which you are a member and signed releases and everything- have more rights, and don’t need the beep.
[/quote]

So a membership store can physically detain you, with no alarm or other reasonable basis to suspect wrongdoing? Cite?

(and for the third time, I thought we were strictly limiting ourselves to facts in the OP? Where does she talk about membership stores?

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Certainly, they can revoke your membership.
[/quote]

Yes, they can do that. You got one right.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
At a non-member store, they need the beep; otherwise you can cheerfully tell them to get stuffed.
[/quote]

Okay, if we assume that there are no other facts that might create a reasonable basis for a detention, the lack of an alarm allows the shopper to refuse to stop. Very good. Your qualification got your somewhere! (but wait.. the OP said that there was an alarm. Ooops.)

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
IANAL
[/quote]

Two right.

28

But wait! There’s more from the indefatigable DrDeth!

But there won’t be more from me, not in response to him. I’m done wading through his nonsense.

To everyone else, please don’t listen to his legal claims. Anything he gets right is either by chance (or in his latest trick, by poorly cutting-and-pasting what more informed people have said elsewhere.)

29

[Moderator blows whistle!!]

Time out, guys.

DrDeth. When questions about legal issues arise in General Questions, please refrain from offering an opinion as if you are talking from expertise. And saying IANAL at the end of your post does NOT cover your ass. I don’t mean to single you out–this is a bad problem in GQ with many offenders. But it’s your turn in my barrel.

Thanks to all the actual lawyers in this one and the previous one for their informed opinions. We’ve beat this one into the ground(again). Let’s move on.

samclem GQ moderator