Lenin and the "4 million killed"

Incorrect. Factual error.

A young girl’s dead body was displayed after the bombing, aged 7 or so, and a claim was made that she was Qaddafi’s adopted daughter.

This claim stinks like rotten fish.

Girl children are usually viewed as a burden in Islamic societies. Adoption of a girl is almost unknown. indeed, almost unheard of. :dubious:

Oddly, it was claimed that she was in one of the very buildings that was directly hit by bombs. Yet, her extremely pretty face was unscarred. There were no visible signs of injury. Given the enormous force of the bomb blast (tapes from the aircraft were shown on CNN), how is it that this child was not reduced to an unrecognizable mass?:dubious:

I have to ask–why would an Islamic father permit his dead daughter’s unveiled face to be immodestly displayed on TV? :dubious:
I do not believe this child was killed in the bombing.

I believe that Qaddafi found a child’s body in the local undertaker’s, & trotted it out for the spin value.

Perhaps because he’s not a fundementalist boogeyman? It’s absurd to assert that in the entire Muslim world, female children are viewed as “burdens.” Libya is not Osama bin Laden’s living room.

Not that Quaddafi wasn’t and isn’t a liar and a supporter of terrorism, but your comments about Muslims in general smack of rank ignorance. The world’s billion Muslims do not all have Talibanesque attitudes towards women. I know some of them and they love their little girls as much as their little boys.

Every source I have ever seen, whether books or journals, have said that the child was killed. The story seems plausible enough for the BBC ( BBC NEWS | Europe | Flashback: The Berlin disco bombing
) or CBC ( http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/foreign/fa_essays/essay20030202.htm ) for example.

You can of course believe as you wish, but to me your denial of this is as wilfully ignornt as Sandino’s denials. In both cases we have reputable sources claiming an atrocity happened and in both cases we have one individual claiming that it never happened.

Next thing you know you’re gonna be claimg that Hussein’s son wasn’t killed by the US military under orders of the President.

Or we disagree rather strongly about “extenuating circumstances”.

BUt the basic point you make is correct - there is no one document. In history, there are no silver bullets. It is the weight and preponderance of evidence. Quite frankly, both you and Sandino choose to selectively discard evidence that does not fit your worldview. Ergo, no action can be made wrong in your eyes, because it is neccessarily run past your filters, which eliminate anything that might upset you too much.

I am not seeking to excuse or absolve the Bolsheviks. I’m trying to explain what was going on at the time those documents were written - basically something Sam has ignored in his arguments.

What evidence have I discarded? None, so far as I can tell. I’ve just provided a fuller background to the evidence, arguing that the conclusions drawn from the evidence presented are unfounded.

I would, however, like to see sources for these statements. Sam and HayekHeyst have offered statements from Lenin and Latsis without cites or references. A Google search for the Penza telegram turns up nothing but verbatim copies with no further referencing; I haven’t done the same for the Latsis quote but the total lack of reference to a source does make it hard to swallow.

The Latsis quote can be found in:
Aron, Raymond. Democracy and Totalitarianism. London, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1968
and
Furet, Francois. The Passing of an Illusion: The Idea of Communism in the Twentieth Century. Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1999.

The Lenin Penza quote that Sam put up can be found in the Russian Center for the Conservation and Study of Historic Documents. Moscow, reference number 2/1/6/898.

As far as the Quaddafi and Hussein son incidents, I would say this:
Some people postulate that the just prosecution of rebellion and war should only target military figures and possibly police. I think that is mistaken. Political leaders are also legitimate targets–indeed, may be preferable targets.

If anti-occupation Iraqis were attempting to kill Tony Blair and George Bush instead of the UN or Iraqi civilians, I’d have much more sympathy for them. I’m not anti-Bush or anti-Blair, but in this case, they’d at least be attempting to kill people responsible for the situation they oppose.

As far as I understand, Quaddafi was the target of the attack, but it wasn’t successful and an innocent inadvertantly was killed. Maybe sufficient safeguards weren’t taken, but at least the girl wasn’t the intentional target of the attack.

Qusai and Uday Hussein were governmental policymakers and executors (grim pun intended) in Baathist Iraq. And they weren’t just in charge of non-violent Education or Propaganda.

And all that you say is true, but irrelevant. The poiint I was making is that we can not claim that US presidents have never ordered the deaths of political enemies.

All the justifications you gave were also given by Lenin.

So let me get this straight - because Qadaffi is a ‘political enemy’ who was bombed, and Lenin murdered tens of thousands of ‘political enemies’, we have a moral equivalence?

It’s exactly this kind of twisted ‘equivalence’ that causes me to conclude that the True Believers will never be dissuaded by the evidence. Lenin ordered terror raids throughout the population? Hey! Bush ordered a bombing that killed a child! Same thing. Lenin ordered the mass confiscation of farm property that led to a famine that killed millions? He had Kulaks rounded up at random and hung, just to terrorize the population? Hey, America bombed Libya! It’s all the same. How’s a poor Marxist to tell right from wrong?

I don’t seem to have expressed myself well.

My particular problem with the Lenin letter would be the taking hostages and then executing them based on the conduct of others.

Quaddafi and the Hussein sons were at least alleged to be engaging in conduct that the US wanted to stop. That allegation may or may have been true, but it was the basis of the attempt on Quaddafi’s life and the killing of U/Q. They were killed for things that they had at least allegedly done.

In the Lenin case, hostages were deliberately killed for things they had nothing to do with. That’s the essence of being a hostage. It wasn’t an accident, it wasn’t even callous indifference like bombing an AAA battery next to a known school or something.

Hostages are people who are chosen to be harmed if someone else doesn’t meet the hostage-taker’s demands. The only case I can see being valid is if the hostages already merited the punishment threatened on independent grounds, for something they had done. In this case, you’re not so much threatening to harm the hostages if the enemy misbehaves as offering clemency if the enemy behaves.

As a ‘positive defense’ much like legal insanity, the burden of proof would be on the hostage taker in that situation.

Who ever said anything even remotely like that?

Someone claimed that no US president had ever killed the families of a political enemy. I was pointing out that that statement is false. That was, is and remains the only point.

I suppose its a matter of scale. Does the US have blood on its hands? Of course it does. No one is denying that (which is a key point). However, unless you are totally delusional, you know that there is a big difference between an innocent child killed accidentally in a bombing (or even 10 or 20) of a legitimate target, and deliberate mass executions both of political prisoners, rebels, and innocents.

Thats why the fall back position is Sandinos constant line…it never happened. Because you CAN’T justify slaughter on that scale in modern times, no matter what rationalizations you use. Ok, so they were rebels or political prisoners…does that warrent lining them up against a wall and shooting them, or putting them in prison camps and starving them? Ok, so a region was in rebellion during your civil war…does that warrent taking all the food from said region and starving the people into submission? Civil wars are brutal things…we know, we had one. But at its worst, our Civil war was NEVER that brutal. After the South was defeated, we didn’t starve Texas into submission. We didn’t line up civilians in Carolina and shoot them wholesale. Nothing justifies such actions on such a scale.

Unless you deny these things happened (as Sandino does), how can you possibly equate such actions to the US bombing in Libya or the war and occupation in Iraq. Did innocents die in both of those events? Yes, they did. Was the US responsible…yes, most definitely it was. Justifications? Well, in Libya I’d argue that there was some. Afghanistan I think was infinitely justify-able. Iraq? Not really, no. But on the other hand, while the US had no justification, Iraq wasn’t exactly a model country, nor SH a benevolent leader. SH might not have made the top 10 list in the company of Lenin and Stalin and the like, but I’m sure he was in the top 20 or so…and it wasn’t through lack of trying on his part.

But, did the US try its best to prevent such casualities? You know they did, though in many cases they failed. Did they deliberately target civilians in either case? No, they didn’t. Did they round up dissadents and rebels and execute them? No, they imprisoned them in Cuba, with plenty of food and such…no starvation deaths there.

Look, the US, like every other major power in the world for all time has blood on its hands, has done some fairly horrible things, things that we as its citizens aren’t proud of. We mainly acknowledge them (except the US Sandinos who are in denial…and they are thankfully a very small minority). However, what Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc did was beyond the pale…it was slaughter on such a scale that there simply IS no comparison.

Name a 6 year time frame when the US deliberately or even accidentally killed 4 million of its citizens, not through war and battle deaths, but through executions, starvation, famine, etc. For that matter, name a time when the US killed OTHER peoples citizens in the same time frame on the same scale. Not battle deaths, but when we deliberately starved, executed, ect 4 million in a 6 year period. Can’t do it.

Its ridiculous to compare the US to the various communist countries when speaking of this kind of thing, just like Sandino says…but not in the way he meant it. If he had such ammunition on that score, he would have trotted it out, instead of more retoric.

-XT

I guess that proves no one on these boards is delusional because no one ever claimed equivalence between those acts.

From Blake

Really? Hm…

From Sandino

From Sandino

I suppose you are right…Sandino only claimed the US was WORSE.

-XT

I would agree with that! It really speaks to the power of the doctrinal system that people can believe that Lenin was a murderer, much less a mass murderer.

It is important to point out, I think, that the various posters in this thread are not idle observers, but have taken a side on the Russian Civil War. Not one person has so much as made a token condemnation of the imperialist intervention in Russia, which, as I have pointed out to no effect, was the sole reason for the massive loss of life. In other words, those who condemn Lenin are really taking the side of the White Guards. And, whatever you think of Bolshevik actions during the war, it is beyond doubt that the White Guards were orders of magnitude more brutal.

You all are, in effect, taking the side of the Entente powers, taking the side of the Japanese, British, French and American invaders, along with the nine other capitalist states that gave material support to the White Guards.

A point to note is that workers around the world knew instinctively what side the Bolsheviks were on. Were it not for British and American workers refusing to load war munitions, and the agitation against the intervention, the Bolsheviks probably would have lost.

You are taking the side of the pogromist generals who wanted to wipe out the workers’ institutions, slaughter all the communists, and re-institute the monarchy. You are solidarizing with Kolchak, Denikin, Kornilov, et.al. At least have the integrity to be open about your allegiance.
As I browsed back through this thread, I noticed a few things. The first is that nobody has attempted to defend the ludicrous charge that the Bolsheviks were responsible for the famine in the Volga. This is probably wise on the part of the anti-Bolsheviks, since it obviously a monstrous position to take. The war took every last resource of the state just in fighting to defend itself. Added to this was a drought in the Volga which led to a massive famine. The Bolsheviks tried desperately to deal with the situation, but there was little they could do, fighting off an invasion, surrounded by hostile powers, under siege. It was the imperialists who used the famine as a weapon.

In addition, the fact that people were executed during a civil war hardly amounts to mass murder. Communists are against the death penalty except for this one situation, because during a civil war imprisonment is no deterrent, as each side expects to win. The Bolsheviks did carry out summary executions, as every army has done. Those who claim that the Bolsheviks were more brutal than other armies on this score simply don’t know anything about war.
It seems to me that the only plausible charge of murder that can be levelled at the bolsheviks is regarding the Red Terror. On this score, conflicting numbers have been put forward. The spartacus site gives figures of between 800 and 6,300 executions were carried out during the terror. Rummell gives as a “low” figure 1,800,000, an obvious falsification. Even if legitimate figures for the red terror are given, and these are counted as crimes, it hardly makes Lenin into a mass murderer on the scale of a Pol Pot or George Bush.

What was the Red Terror? The spartacus site actually gives a partially truthful account. It was the result of sabateurs and counter-revolutionary forces waging their own campaigns of terror against the workers and revolutionary soldiers. The spartacus site, though, laughably refers to the people killed as “socialists.” In fact, these “socialists” had gone over to the side of the White Guard quite openly fighting for bourgeois power. The Bolsheviks were compelled to resort to repressive measures.

Here is the thing–Marxists are honest. We call things by their right names. When a Marxist is carrying out a campaign of terror against the enemy, she says so, straight up. When we say we want to bring the working class to power, we say straight up that this is the dictatorship of the proletariat. On the other hand, when the imperialists carry out their own campaigns of terror, be it in Nicaragua, Vietnam, Congo, Angola, Korea, and around the world, they call it “counter-insurgency,” or “resistance,” or “pacification,” or anything except for what it actually is. When the U.S. was slaughtering Vietnamese peasants, for example, and herding them into concentration camps, they called the camps “strategic hamlets,” and put signs over the gates reading “welcome to freedom.”

Communists are opposed to individual terror. When carried out by individuals, it only tends to isolate the working class and accrue more repressive powers to the state. When the working class comes to power, however, it must use its position to inspire fear in the defeated enemy.

I certainly wouldn’t justify wanton terror used to pacify an entire population. But, when it is used in the service of the revolutionary working class, and is aimed at the exploiters, then it is fully justified.

Do you have a reference for this? When the Bolsheviks came to power, the Tsarist army was disbanded. They had to rebuild an army from scratch, and post-haste. They had to use the Tsarist officers as specialists. In order to ensure that the officers wouldn’t sabotage the revolution, they assigned a commisar to stand behind the officers with a gun. They also resorted to taking the families of the officers hostage.

E.H. Carr and Isaac Deutscher claim that none of the hostages were actually killed, despite threats to do so. I also have books by the anti-communists Cohen, Treadgold and Harrison-Salisbury, which deal with the civil war. None of them mention anything about the killing of hostages. Given that E.H. Carr is the recognized authority on the history of the USSR, I will have to see some evidence that the Bolsheviks executed hostages.

Check out Trotsky’s Our Morals and Theirs for a defense of hostage taking during the civil war.

Taking hostages isn’t the issue. The US military has always taken civilan hostages and is doing so as we speak. The question is whether these hostages were killed.

Once again, your retoric is underwhelming. Once again, you have exactly zip to back up anything you say…well, except for a ‘cite’ from the spartacus web site, which I guess you feel is a reliable source.

From Sandino

Once again you try to say that the numbers provided were wrong…and your proof of this is the spartacus web site. Well, you are moving up at least…at least you finally gave the font of all your wisdom. And this site is credible and Rummell isn’t exactly how?? BTW, where exactly on the site is the info you are throwing around? I don’t feel like searching though it all (it reminds me a lot of some UFO or bigfoot web sites I’ve seen…the US ‘history’ section was certainly entertaining though)…can you quote out the relevant passages and give links to that?

Just out of curiosity though…just how many people did or has George Bush had executed or otherwise killed? I don’t remember the Blue Terror well enough to make the call. Could you provide some specific numbers?

-XT

OK, I did a little digginig on the Latsis quote - can’t vouch for the date as given by HayekHeyst, but this otherwise repugnant article states it appeared in Pravda on 25 Dec 1918. This site, however, shows there’s a little more to the quote than previously given:

Asserting Latsis had a blatant disregard for the notion of justice is incorrect; the point of the Cheka was to be a tool to help win the civil war, not to be a new court of law.

What research I’ve managed to do on Latsis indicates he wasn’t a leader of the Cheka as a whole, but Dzerzhinsky’s deputy in Ukraine - i.e. another front where the Russian Civil War was at its hottest. Again, it all boils down to the fact that the Soviet government was fighting to defend itself in the midst of a vicious, nasty, brutish multi-front war.

If you look at the totals of Rummell’s breakdown again, it becomes quite clear that the victims of the Red Terror are far outnumbered by those who died of other causes during that period. Why cry out that the Bolsheviks are mass murderers when so many millions more perished in a war (and the famines and destruction caused thereby) that the Bolsheviks didn’t even start? You’re blowing a minority of the deaths out of all proportion.

Ultimately, yes, I am defending the Red Terror. I think that, given the circumstances at the time, it was a necessary measure to make the cost of the counterrevolution too much to be worth it to the Whites. (This isn’t a new idea; Von Clausewitz discusses it at length in On War.) Is the Red Terror an intrinsic component of socialism? No, definitely not. Its necessity depends on the level of resistance put up by the old ruling classes. The harder the old bosses, generals, and politicians fight to take back what they’ve lost, the more necessary terror is as a defensive measure.

Blake writes:

I’m curious what you’re referring to? Guantanamo? I’ve plenty of problems and concerns about that, but as far as I understand, the US military alleges that all the people there have committed acts that rationalize them being there.

This is a horrifying, revolting, terrifying sentiment.

Under this rationale, any level of terror, any number of murders, any amount of torture is justified if–in the opinion of an unelected leadership that claims to speak for the oppressed working class-- such tactics are “necessary,” given the “circumstances,”
to counter “resistance.” Anyone who resists, anyone who criticizes this unelected purported “government” is–by definition–either an “old boss” who deserves what he gets, or a dupe who is in thrall to the old bosses, and therefore also deserves what he gets.

So there is no need for so-called “free elections” since “freedom” (at least the way all us bourgeois dupes use the word) is an illusion, and the working class is already running things (through the unelected revolutionary government of course)–so what would be the point of an election, except to give the ruling class another chance to pull one over on the working class (who can’t be trusted to vote in their own best interest.)

And there is no need to permit so-called “freedom” of speech, or “freedom” of the press, or “freedom” to criticize the government. Opposition to the government is opposition to the revolution, and just more “resistance” by the old ruling class and their dupes. Same goes for the right to due process of law and protection of individual liberty. In fact there is no need for an independent judiciary, because it’s better to have an “organ of the revolution” than a bunch of judges doing the bidding of the ruling class.

Because it is simply “self-evident” that the “revolution” is a good thing, that anyone who questions it, is the enemy. And against such an enemy, the circumstances are bound to require any level of terror, any level of horror.

And the land will be awash in blood, and we will march on a road of bones.