Lenin and the "4 million killed"

What a ludicrous straw man. The Bolsheviks came to power on a wave of popular support. They were elected by the overwhelming majority in the soviets. They did not simply claim to speak for the oppressed, they actually did.

Terror is used by every revolutionary government; it is a necessary component of a civil war, since the defeated classes will always try to regain their lost position. The revolutionary Jacobins in the French Revolution had to resort to a reign of terror for a time, as did the Bolsheviks.

Revolutionary terror is qualitatively different from individual terror. It has a diametrically opposite character and aim. It is used by the revolutionary class to crush the resistance to their rule. The Red Terror was fully justified as a measure to crush the resistance of the bloodsucking Russian nobility and bourgeoisie, the same bourgeoisie that had sent millions of Russian workers to go kill German workers on the blood soaked plains of WWI.

Marxists are not bloodthirsty. We generally abhor violence. By the same token, we understand that violence will be a part of life as long as classes exist. The crocodile tears you shed over the Russian bourgeoisie are being shed for the members of a vicious ruling class that was making many fortunes off of the blood of Russian soldiers, sucking dry the national wealth. While Russian soldiers were dying in the bloody mudholes in Europe, and workers in Petrograd were starving, the nobility and bourgeoisie was living it up in the palaces and fancy restaurants.

Violence is used by a Marxist in the way a surgeon must use violence against a body in order to rid it of a more heinous ailment. We would be more than happy if the bourgeoisie would consent to submit their property to a democratic vote, and hand it over if they lose. But this will never happen. No propertied class in history has given up its position without a bloody revolution.

We hail the American Civil War as a progressive war, for example, since, despite the massive loss of life, it released millions from bondage. To this day, racist supporters of the southern slavocracy refer to Abraham Lincoln as “the first American dictator,” since he led the fight against the slavocracy. The criticisms of Lenin have a quite similar origin.

Another ludicrous straw man. The Marxist program is for workers democracy, through working class organizations that place political power directly in the hands of the working class. Soviet democracy was a billion times more democratic than any parliamentary democracy, a billion times more representative, more attentive to the will of the masses. It was the direct class rule of the working class, i.e. the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Quite the opposite. The soviets took over the presses in March 1917, not by an armed takeover, but by winning the workers in the printing houses to their cause. Simply put, the workers in the printing shops refused to recognize any authority except for the soviets, i.e. the democratic organizations of the workers.

This describes the world today.

The imperialist powers, centrally the U.S., wage wars across the globe. The bloodbath in Iraq is only the most obvious manifestation of a global war against the poor. It is not the case that there is a war, then peace for a time, then another war. Rather, it is all war all the time. The war never stops, and it never will stop until the profit driven system is put out of business for good, until those who labor rule.

From the hundreds of thousands of disappeared, dismembered and shattered in Central America, to the burned, gassed and bombed in Vietnam, to the starved, broken bodies that litter the continent of Africa, U.S. imperialism has left a pile of bodies and shattered lives around the world.

This bloodshed will only intensify as the capitalist powers try to squeeze every last bit of profit out of the workers from Detroit to Soweto to San Salvador.

ONLY a victorious workers revolution can put a stop to this insanity.

Olentzero,

I know this is off-topic, but I am dying to ask, and I didn’t want to start a whole new thread on it.

What is/was your opinion of the Red Army intervention in Afghanistan from 1979-88?

Submitted only for your ammusement.

Well, lets do so then. What was the NEP? If collectivisation had not begun yet ( a claim you made earlier as a refutation that the Volga famine was caused by the communists) why did Lenin feel the need to make a change in March of 1921?From the site you offered earlier.
And if farm output was decreasing so drasticallyNot a good site, seems to be a book review, but it does have a few exerpts.

From here just so we know.

Originally posted by constantine

*Originally posted by Sandino *

Another strawman, indeed.

Kronstadt, 1921…

Kronstadt, 1921…

In other words, directly into the hands of the party which represents the working class, right? “All Power to the Soviets” (in the case of the Russian Revolution)? Or is it rather “All Power to the Party” (in the case of the Bolsheviks?)

Kronstadt, 1921…

Kronstadt, 1921…

Kronstadt, 1921…

Kronstadt, 1921…

Kronstadt, 1921…

The Kronstadt Programme

The full list of demands are as follows:

"1. Immediate new elections to the Soviets. The present Soviets no longer express the wishes of the workers and peasants. The new elections should be by secret ballot, and should be preceded by free electoral propaganda.
2. Freedom of speech and of the press for workers and peasants, for the Anarchists, and for the Left Socialist parties.

  1. The right of assembly, and freedom for trade union and peasant organisations.

  2. The organisation, at the latest on 10th March 1921, of a Conference of non-Party workers, solders and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt and the Petrograd District.

  3. The liberation of all political prisoners of the Socialist parties, and of all imprisoned workers and peasants, soldiers and sailors belonging to working class and peasant organisations.

  4. The election of a commission to look into the dossiers of all those detained in prisons and concentration camps.

  5. The abolition of all political sections in the armed forces. No political party should have privileges for the propagation of its ideas, or receive State subsidies to this end. In the place of the political sections various cultural groups should be set up, deriving resources from the State.

  6. The immediate abolition of the militia detachments set up between towns and countryside.

  7. The equalisation of rations for all workers, except those engaged in dangerous or unhealthy jobs.

  8. The abolition of Party combat detachments in all military groups. The abolition of Party guards in factories and enterprises. If guards are required, they should be nominated, taking into account the views of the workers.

  9. The granting to the peasants of freedom of action on their own soil, and of the right to own cattle, provided they look after them themselves and do not employ hired labour.

  10. We request that all military units and officer trainee groups associate themselves with this resolution.

  11. We demand that the Press give proper publicity to this resolution.

  12. We demand the institution of mobile workers’ control groups.

  13. We demand that handicraft production be authorised provided it does not utilise wage labour."
    [quoted by Ida Mett, The Kronstadt Revolt, pp. 37-8]
    .

The Kronstadt Rebellion

The NEP was described by Lenin as a “tactical retreat.” It was necessitated by the devastating toll taken on the country by the four years of imperialist bloodletting, and then the civil war. It was intended to get the economy moving again, to give the soviets a breathing space while the revolutions swept Europe. Unfortunately those revolutions were crushed. The NEP was a partial return to capitalist modes of production, to relieve the population from the rigors of “war communism.”

here is Lenin’s opening speech to the tenth party congress on March 8, 1921. The word “starving” appears exactly twice, in these contexts:

“We failed to see the full danger of the crisis approaching with the spring, and succumbed to the natural desire to increase the starving workers’ ration.”

“We cannot have and have not had anything of the kind, and it was quite natural that when at the end of the war the possibility finally arose to give the starving population a little more, we were unable all at once to establish the correct proportion.”

Sorry, but I couldn’t find anything resembling the quote you gave in Lenin’s actual speech.

Incidentally, this was the congress where the NEP was adopted, and the above linked-to speech gives the rationale behind it, if you are interested. This was also the congress when the Kronstadt revolt occured. Every military-able member of the congress actually went to Kronstadt to participate in the suppression. That’s what you call a working congress!

I would love to debate the Kronstadt rebellion with you, but unfortunately my copy of Kronstadt 1921 is not with me. I will have to get back to you on that on Monday. You could check out Trotsky’s Hue and Cry over Kronstadt, somewhere on the www.marxists.org site for the Bolshevik position.

Avrich is sympathetic to the anarchists, but his book actually lends quite a bit of credence to the Bolshevik position. He points out that White Guard emigrees were planning to use the uprising as a launching pad for another intervention. Kronstadt was in a crucial position militarily, right off the coast of Petrograd. Were Kronstadt to fall into White Guard hands, it would have meant disaster for the new state.

Crushing the rebellion was not something the Bolsheviks relished. They pleeded with the sailors to put an end to their undisciplined nonsense, and gave them plenty of opportunities to submit to the workers’ government. In the end, the Bolsheviks had no choice but to crush it. Several hundred members of the 10th party congress actually participated in the assault on the fortress, charging across the ice amidst a hail of machine-gun fire. A few hundred met their ends in a watery grave.

I have suggested that somebody start a “Marxism vs. Anarchism” thread. Maybe the Kronstadt rebellion would be a good starting point for such a thread. I would love to debate the topic, but it won’t be until Monday when I can get at my books.

Was this intended to be humorous? There are so many outrageous violations of rights going on in Guantanamo it is hard to tell where to start.

In the first place, all of the prisoners are being held as “illegal combatants,” a term invented by the imperial presidency in order to avoid according them the rights enjoyed by prisoners of war. None have access to a lawyer. They have not been charged with any crime. There is no habeus corpus. It was just a straight up mass kidnapping.

If the claims of the U.S. have validity, the prisoners can be tried in a court of law. Yet, not even a semblance of juridicial rights are being observed. The prisoners have exactly zero rights.

They are being held in inhumane conditions, and there is probably a lot of torture going on. There are certainly credible reports of torture, and it wouldn’t be out of character for the world’s foremost expert on torture, but it is hard to get proof since none of the prisoners are allowed any access whatsoever with the outside world.

Furthermore, the prisoners are being held on land that does not belong to the U.S. The Guantanamo base is a relic of the Batista dictatorship, that the U.S. maintains simply because it can. The government of Cuba certainly does not recognize the U.S. right to the base. This is being done for two reasons: (1) as a fuck-off at Cuba, and (2) to avoid having to grant the prisoners rights they would be accorded to were they on U.S. soil.

Of course also from your commie site is this littel gem:

So, perhaps the quotes you pulled from your friendly neighborhood communists was “what he really wanted to say”. Or perhaps my quote was something for which “the Petrograd comrades [were] punished”.

The original question regarding the NEP, however, still stands. What is it about markets that requires freedom to establish them, and then slavery to enxure that they opperate “efficiently”? If collectivist economies are so superior (as your many claims about industrialization contend) then why was a retreat even necessary? Why not impose more collectivism to solve the problems?

Sweet Jesus have mercy on us.

This is like arguing that My Lai was unimportant because of all the people that died in traffic accidents in Saigon.

Sandino -

I was going thru your posts picking out the unsupported statements, distortions, and outright lies. I got too tired to finish.

Instead, therefore, I would like to hear your response to pervert’s question. Here it is again -

If you could address my previous point as well, that a 60% collectivization of agriculture led to a 23% drop in productivity, you would make a start at establishing a little of the credibility you forfeited with whoppers like -

We have seen that the second is not true in the case of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. We have seen that the first is not true in your case.

Regards,
Shodan

[Quote]

Being that both Sandino and Olentzero have carefully explained that they have no particular objection to the killing of as many people as they might deem necessary to ensure their political goals are met, I’d say the second isn’t true in their own cases either.

In two words? Disgusting imperialism.

I think we’ve already solidly determined that the figure of 4 million is a gross exaggeration based on highly suspect data. The more realistic figures are between 320,000 and 750,000 - and again, that higher figure relies on some of the same suspect data as the 4 million estimate.

That having been said, what about Vietnam? Was every Vietnamese death a battle death? According to this article,

(I’m not sure if this quote comes from the McWilliams and Piotrowski book cited soon after.) Assuming the estimate is correct, for sake of argument, that gives us 700,000 non-military casualties - i.e. Vietnamese who were executed by US forces. Why were they killed? Exactly the same reason the victims of the Red Terror were killed - the US was fighting a war it wanted to win and took measures it considered justifiable.

So, we have two countries killing people in time of war. This shouldn’t be surprising to anyone; killing is a logical conclusion of war. It’s an unfortunate fact.

This leads us to the question - why were they fighting? The Bolsheviks were fighting to throw off oppression; the US was fighting to maintain it. (A quick review of the article I linked to for the casualties quote should make US reasons for involvement in Vietnam clear to anyone.) To me, it’s rather obvious which war should be supported and which should be condemned.

The main objection here seems to be “You can’t seriously believe the Bolsheviks wanted to end oppression; look how oppressive they were during the Civil War!” As if the Bolsheviks were somehow morally bound to uphold the principles of universal freedom and democracy they wished to achieve during a time when the very existence of the revolution was threatened. That would have been suicidal lunacy. You don’t just throw open the city gates when the enemy is right outside. If the Revolution had not only successfully defended itself (and I mantain that the cost exacted by the Civil War made the defense only barely so) but also spread across Europe in the same fashion it took root in Russia, and the Soviet governments of Europe in a time of emerging peace and prosperity still rounded up 50 million citizens into camps and executed another 10 to 25 million in order to maintain their rule, then there would be a point of objection.

As it is, you cannot point to the actions of a government on the edge of annihilation, fighting desperately to even cling on to that edge, and say “This is Communism; this is socialism, and this is what it will do to humanity.” Only those who look at the result and, for whatever reason, ignore the history of the times can draw those unsupported and entirely false conclusions.

"As it is, you cannot point to the actions of a government on the edge of annihilation, fighting desperately to even cling on to that edge, and say “This is Communism; this is socialism, and this is what it will do to humanity.”

When the “edge of annihilation” excuse is carried on for greater than a half century as a justification for crimes against humanity, it loses a bit of steam.

C’mon, Jackmanii, don’t make me post the link to my arguments on Stalinism again. I’m not defending the Soviet Union throughout its whole history. I keep saying that again and again, and one of these days I hope you guys will actually start listening.

At work so don’t have a lot of time to post…my capitalist masters are fingering their whips as I speak. :slight_smile:

From Olentzero

Well, I would consider the vast majority of those as ‘battle deaths’ (civilians die of ‘battle deaths’ as well as soldiers…its called ‘collateral damage’), same as the ‘battle deaths’ for the revolution period on Rummels chart (which were much higher, as you pointed out earlier, then the democide deaths attributed to Lenin). Afaik, the execution or deliberate starvation deaths directly attributable to the US are fairly low, though not zero. I have no idea what the ball park figure is for direct US executions or deliberate starvation off the top of my head (Im’ at work and don’t have time atm to research it), but I’d be willing to bet nearly any amount that its less than 10k.

However, even if we attribute ALL deaths (750k by your post), that is only a fraction of the DEMOCIDE deaths attributed to Lenin (btw, I don’t think its been conclusively established that Rummels mean figures are incorrect…again, if you are going to claim ‘gross exageration’ we need some realist alternative figures to back that statement up), and that doesn’t get into the TOTAL deaths (including battle deaths and other things like disease that WEREN’T attributed to democide in Russia for that period)…THAT figure, if I remember correctly, was something like 18 million dead as the mean, nearly 30 million on the top end. 750k, even if we attribute them ALL to US direct executions and deliberate starvation, is an order of magnitude different to attributing ALL deaths to Lenin.

The US is no saint…I’ll be the first to say that. However, the US GENERALLY doesn’t not deliberately target civilian populations, does not GENERALLY hold mass executions, does not GENERALLY deliberately starve populations into submission. I conceed though that its a matter of perspective. From your perspective, maybe the US IS the font of all evil. From mine, while I don’t see them as the font of all evil (more like a generally fucked up and non workable system) it certainly seems that the communist countries have excelled in one thing…mass slaughter of their own populations.
-XT

Perhaps not, but you are defending the Red Terror by, essentially, stating that it wasn’t so bad, and there was a war on.

Both of which arguments, as I said earlier, can be applied to My Lai. Even without defending the United States throughout its whole history.

Regards,
Shodan

My post was addressed to Olentzero, in case that wasn’t clear.

Regards,
Shodan

Yes, it does. It GENERALLY targets civilian populations, as in the terror bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or the “shock and awe” in Baghdad, or the terror bombing of Afghanistan, etc., etc. The U.S. GENERALLY holds mass executions, as in the numerous death squad operations in south Vietnam, etc.

U.S. imperialism consistently uses food as a weapon, as it does throughout Africa, or North Korea, or as it did in Russia, by the way. It uses its economic power to keep the world poor, through usurious debts, threats of sanctions, and other methods. It consciously and deliberately starves populations into submission.

Try not to be so brainwashed.

I can’t believe I’m responding to Sandino. A Sisyphisean task.

As I said, I have many ‘problems and concerns’ about what’s going on at Guantanamo. My contention was that the people there were not being held as hostages.

Unless you can cite me something which shows that the US has threatened to give the prisoners worse treatment if someone (who? Al Qaeda?) ‘behaves themselves’, it won’t be an instance of hostage taking.

I’m extremely disinclined to believe they’re being held as hostages, if only because I wouldn’t think that people willing to engage in suicide attacks would be deterred from acting by the enemy threatening to make martyrs of their comrades. I don’t think Al-Qaeda can be deterred in this way.

The justice or injustice of any dispute between the US and Cuba would hardly seem to be relevant to the human rights of the prisoners. I know if I were a prisoner, I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if my human rights were violated in Castro’s Cuba or Guantanamo.

From Sandino

Well, I suppose if you want to drag in pre-WWII, you can certainly make a case the the US (as well as everyone else in the conflict, including your precious Soviets) targetted civilians. There is no excusing ALL the powers for having done this, so I suppose you have a case there…of sorts. However, its pretty dis-ingenuous of you to target the US for those actions, without saying that it was the general practice of the day for all combatants.

I suppose in those lights, Olentzero actually DOES have a case for what he’s been trying to say, as, if you look at the time and circumstances, maybe such brutality, while not excusable, is understandable at least. However, YOUR case Sandino still is composed of mainly fantasy.

As to Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I think a case could be made that it SAVED a lot of lives, both Japanese and American. Ya, it WAS a ‘terror’ bombing who’s sole purpose was the finally force the Japanese into surrender without having to go through a massive and very bloody invasion. Whats wrong with that?? It was total war after all, and America didn’t WANT to get involved in the first place. Thats another debate though, and if you want to get into the rights and wrongs of that action, I’m more than willing to oblige you on that.

As to ‘shock and awe’ and what we did in Afghanistan…what delusional world do you live in?? The US most certainly did NOT deliberately target civilians in either campain. Had we of done so, literally MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Iraqi’s would now be dead. Even using conventional weapons, the US could have basically killed most of the people in Iraq, had we a mind to do so. The cities of Iraq would look like the bombed out hulks that dotted Europe after WWII. Hell, we could have done all that without ever risking a single ground troop.

In Afghanistan, which has a more dispursed population, it would have been tougher…look at how hard it was for the Soviets, who DID deliberatly target the population at large (you probably forgot about that part).

In fact the US went out of its way to keep civilian casualities to a bare minimum. In ANY war, there will always be civilian casualities. If you want to make the case that the US should not have become involved in Iraq or Afghanistan, thats one thing…but to make a claim that the US deliberately targetted civilians in EITHER conflict…well, all I can say is, cite??

The US, in general, holds with mass executions, huh? Again, you are totally twisting and spinning on this. ‘Death squads’ in South Vietnam? These wouldn’t be special forces and LRRP groups opperating in enemy territory, tasked with killing enemy soldiers, officers and officials, would it?? As there was, you know, a war on and all? Yes, I can certainly see the difference. Thanks for bringing that up.

As for food…yes, of course all of North Korea’s problems (how many have starved to death now? Several million afaik…another ‘workers paradise’) are the US’s fault…I can see that clearly (heavy sarcasm here). And I can see that the US doesn’t send boatloads of food and supplies to Africa either the dirty bastards (snort). We must both live on different planets, or maybe you are in some kind of alternative reality from the world I live in.

As to Russia though…um…why would we NEED to send food to Russia btw? I can’t remember anything recent about us denying food to Russia (or anyone else…do you have a cite for this? lol)…the only thing I can remember (vaguely) is that, when Russia was still the USSR, we refused to send them grain for some reason or another (I forget why, though I can probably imagine a suitable scenerio, as there was, you know, that whole cold war thingy going on). However, why would the ‘workers paradise’ with an agraculture and industry that you say is many times better than our corrupt capitalist system NEED grain from the US??
From Sandino

Well, certainly ONE of us should take this advice. However, I dinna think it should be me…

-XT