The Council never “wrote her off,” she quit taking orders from them after they had Giles drug her and put her through that stupid test when she turned 18.
What evidence is there that other Slayers recieved any more supervision than Buffy has in Giles and then Wesley? Faith only mentions “a” watcher, who is killed. Then Wesley becomes her watcher, as well as Buffy’s. Kendra had a single watcher, as well. Whenever Buffy needs information, Giles or Wesley contacts the Council and reports back to her with whatever they tell him. There’s never any mention of a Slayer with multiple Watchers.
I don’t find any support for the notion that Giles is “expendable.” He seems highly respected by the Council and its members - at least until his fatal flaw is revealed: he cares too much about Buffy to discipline her in the way the Council thinks appropriate. Then he is replaced with Wesley. Although Wesley is a fop and a dweeb, he’s also an academic and attempts to be a disciplinarian, just like the Council wanted him to be. Buffy’s not biting, and Giles’ presence certainly doesn’t help their dynamic, but I don’t see how Wesley is “expendable” either.
This segment was, (like a lot of other things on Buffy,) played for laughs, but I think it is very indicative that Giles was not treated with a lot of respect by the council… a fairly simple retreat, a gathering of the Watcher’s membership… and he had NEVER been invited. Even if it’s only a select few who get invited, to be consistently left out would seem to indicate that he’s not considered to be the cream of the crop.
There’s also a lot of the byplay with Gwendolyn Post in ‘Revelations’ that seems to be relevant – yes, she was evil and had come to Sunnydale to steal a mystic artifact, yes, she was probably being condescending and dismissive of Giles to keep him off balance and manipulate him.
But the way Giles reacts to her attitude indicates that he isn’t too surprised at some of it… he knows he’s thought of as a black sheep among watchers.
That’s the way I read it, in any event. Counterpoints??
I agree. My impression was that Giles’s father was a respected watcher, Giles was expected to follow suit, instead screwed around a lot as a young man (Ripper), and eventually came back to the Watchers in shame–shame that they never really let him live down.
I read both of those as Academic Banter. I see it all the time (my husband’s a college prof) and it has nothing to do with whether or not a person is respected in his field. In fact, the more highly regarded one is, the more likely other academics are to try to tear you down. Plus the Council is huge, by all appearances, and “a great honor” may only be open to the top 10%. Giles may not be in the top 10% (especially since he’s not living in England and kissing the right ass on a daily basis) but that doesn’t mean he’s in the bottom 10%, either. But, I do admit that’s reading outside the text, and I’m willing to succeed your first point.
Gwendolyn I can’t give you, though. Her entire modus opperandus was to attempt to tear down Buffy and Faith’s faith in Giles so they would accept her as Faith’s watcher. Of course she was a bitch to Giles - she wanted to undermine his authority with the Slayers. As far as his reactions go, he was certainly in full Giles-fluster mode, so I’m not sure “he isn’t too surprised” is accurate. She was not a representative of the Council. She was an evil bitch who betrayed the Council, so of course would be extra scornful of those still connected with it.
Are you sure you’re not thinking of Wesley? I don’t remember ever hearing anything about Giles’ father. There’s lots I don’t remember though.
Here’s one for the OP (or anyone else who wants to take a stab at it):
Why is it that some potentials have Watchers and others don’t? Kendra had a Watcher from a very young age - before Buffy died and Kendra became a Slayer. Some of the other potentials talked about their Watchers, but some seemed clueless of their potential status until the Scooby-Gang picked them up. Buffy wasn’t “called” (I suppose that means became a Slayer) until her freshman year of high school, which is also when her Watcher showed up, right?
Given that at least one potential had a Watcher (Kendra), it would seem that the Council has some way of determining who the potentials are. So why doesn’t every potential get a Watcher, just in case she becomes the Slayer?
I thought Faith mentioned her mother several times, in passing–you are left with a wrong-side-of-the-tracks feeling about her upbringing. Was there something about her mother drinking, perhaps?
My question is not new, but how about your take on it:
How come the First tortures Spike by drowning him, and it works? Yes, he can’t kill him, but if vampires don’t breathe (and that is well established), how can he all but drown?
There is a similar moment when Spike strangles Drusilla, but maybe that was blood to the brain that made her pass out?
It is obvious that the watcher’s council can identify potentials (as can willow via a spell), it’s possible that only some of the potentials can be reached with the WC’s methods and those are the ones assigned a watcher. More likely however i believe that it is possible to see who has the “strongest” potential status, therefore the most likely to become the next slayer…they surely get watchers (kendra, faith).
A lot of people point out the since vamps don’t need to breathe it is inconsistant that they can smoke or we see them panting after a fight. I believe that the breathing thing is like the eating thing, they don’t need to do it to live…but they do it anyway. They can’t die from being drowned but there’s no indication that it doesn’t hurt like hell.
I actually always thought it was a little hit or miss to find potentials… the Council probably doesn’t have a sorceress as powerful as Willow in every town all over the world, and even Willow’s spell wasn’t interpreted correctly until Amanda settled the issue in combat.
Probably, in a lot of the cultures where the watchers can operate more freely without attracting undue attention, they follow the traces as well as they can and normally find the potentials. In other cultures… probably they knew that there was a potential somewhere in such-and-such neighborhood of a particular LA suburb, but didn’t identify Buffy personally until she was Called.
They both came from a family of Watchers. Giles’ father and grandmother were both watchers.
I also got the impression that Giles wasn’t the most respected member of the CoW. Remember when he “didn’t get the memo” about Post? Again, played for laughs, but jesus, there’s a psycho roque watcher out there trying to kill somebody and he doesn’t get the memo?
I agree, and Dawn in the equation complicates things further, since in a way, Buffy did create life when the monks used her blood to make Dawn.
Well, I actually don’t think The Gift does make much sense. And I suppose it’s precicely because I don’t buy the “Slayers choose to die” line.
I agree that he functions in this way (just as Cordelia and Anya did at times), but I disagree that there’s any substance to his statements in this instance (as opposed to, say, “Lover’s Walk” or even much of season 6).
But how is that “choosing death” any more than anyone else who fights demons chooses death? How is Xander not choosing death by knowingly getting himself into situations that will likely lead to him dying? I don’t see how this specifically means that the Slayer chooses death more than anyone who fights evil does in her world, let alone compared to other heroes.
Even granted that the end of “The Gift” has a lot to do with Buffy being in control of her choices (which I think it is, to an extent, although I think it’s incredibly flawed), I don’t see either reason or ample evidence to extend this to a greater theme of “slayers choose to die.” Indeed, I think your argument is very compelling as it applies to Buffy… but in that case, it seems to me that all it would mean is that Spike knows what Buffy is going through, not necessarily that he has any greater insight into the nature of Slayers, or even that there’s a common factor that exists among them that doesn’t exist among everyone else who regularly risks their life.
Then how does Kendra fit into any of this (or even some of the former-potentials who died at the end of “Chosen”)? How did she choose her own death? If it’s just because she put herself into harm’s way, then again I have to question how potent of a theme it is, because everyone on the show does that.
It seems to me as though all of this fits better to a more nihilistic theme. Slayers really aren’t that powerful, it’s just that the higher powers in the Buffyverse aren’t that powerful either. Nobody really has control over that much. Agents in the Buffyverse may try to ascribe higher purposes or subconscious motivations to everything, but in the end what kills the Slayer ends up being something totally random, not the fact that she’s ready to die.
Okay, I’m clearly confused. I mean, by that logic, what kind of death wouldn’t fit in to the whole “Slayers want to die” thing? I guess that’s pretty much the same problem as I raised in my previous post: by the logic we’re applying to that theme, I’m having a hard time seeing who it wouldn’t apply to, which sort of renders it meaningless to me.
Of course, it’s entirely possible I just don’t get it. I definitely defer to pepperlandgirl in all things Buffy related.
Why was it deemed necessary by those in the know to keep the truth about the Hellmouth a secret from the local citizenry? How were people made safer by **not ** knowing of the existence of vampires and other demons? It seems to me that dozens of Sunnydale citizens perished needlessly because they were kept ignorant of the the undead menace, when an informed public could have taken the necessary precautions.
I’m pretty good at overlooking plot holes, but this is the one thing about the show that always sorta bugged me.
Ummm… who exactly are you referring to as ‘those in the know’?? Those authorities who seemed to be clearly aware of the realities of life in sunnydale, such as the police chief?? Buffy and the schooby gang? Everyday citizens who managed to survive an encounter with the forces of darkness and weren’t able to rationalize it away??
The answers will be different for each of those groups, or others. A few relevant points.
Early in the show, it was explained to Xander and Willow that they couldn’t explain to anyone about vampires because they wouldn’t be believed. More and more through the show, the existence of the supernatural seemed to be something of a ‘wink wink’ open secret – something you still didn’t talk about too publicly, in case someone who hadn’t come to terms with it was listening. If you knew you were talking to someone who knew the real deal, you might pass along a few helpful survival tips.
The rarely-seen police chief of seasons 2 and 3, of course, was not really motivated in the direction of keeping the populace of sunnydale safe. He was a crony of Mayor Wilkins, who needed to have a sizable community of ‘victims’ in the vicinity for several reasons.
I’m mainly concerned with the good guys; for starters, why couldn’t Buffy tell her mother? Being the mother of the Slayer put Joyce in harm’s way constantly; for example, had she been more wary of who she invited into her home, she could have avoided being nearly eaten by Darla.
