lethal response to home breakin

Great Debates
21

We have two different problems here. One is the proper response to a break in of your home. The second is the appropriate force to repel an assault. As a general proposition the use of deadly force is justified only in the face of a reasonably perceived threat of serious bodily injury to self or another. Generally there is an obligation to retreat before using deadly force EXCEPT in your own home, where there is no duty to retreat.

When there is a simple break in it is probably not going to be acceptable to stand at the top of the stairs and snipe away at some guy trying to carry off the silver service. Just as soon as the guy knows you are there and starts to come toward you, you can probably unlimber on him. If the guy has a weapon you are probably authorized to fire just as soon as he and the weapon become a threat to you or someone else. Whether the intruder presents a threat of serious bodily harm or death is largely a subjective judgement which the police and the prosecutor are not inclined to question very strenuously. In the dark, in your own home (or hotel room for that matter) the authorities will be inclined to give the homeowner the benefit of the doubt. The privilege to use deadly force is for the defense of life, not property.

Remember to aim low.

22

Further, on the question of the fleeing perp., there is probably no lawful justification for firing on the guy once he has ceased to be a threat. Once you do that and hit the guy, lawyer bills are probably the least of your problems. Even the Cincinnati policeman had the good sense to claim that the fleeing perp. was drawing a weapon.

23

well if you just wound the guy and he goes to jail for a short period then do you live in fear that he will get back at you. so you move to a different city?

and if you kill him then the same problem with his friends/family.

my first response would be to blow him away and then haul off the body and dump it and not tell anybody. now if he has a partner I am in the same boat as the other 2 scenarios.

again thats if I am menanced. hopefully I would try to chase him off first.

24

And this, ladies and gents, is why the only proper use of force is the use of overwhelming force.

That is, if you’re in a situation where force is called for don’t be wrapped up in being ‘fair’ or ‘sportsmanlike’. Finish it. Finish it immediately. You can pick up the pieces later if necessary. Don’t try to ‘scare’ an intruder. Don’t try to ‘wound’ a prowler. If you have a gun and feel you have to use it, use it to kill. That’s the only reasonable response.

Hell, I’m a Virginian. And a rural one at that. Like I said before, I could finish someone and the cops wouldn’t even bother to take a statement.

25

I also have two big dogs. And I’m a very hairy 6’2", with a live steel one-handed Claymore longsword on the wall near my bed (and I know where to aim the pointy end). If a hundred pound Bernese, an 80 pound wolf-mix, and a naked asshole waving a sword don’t scare an intruder off or manage to take him down, the intruder’s a vampire and I’m likely fucked anyway.

But, assuming no dogs and a loaded handgun, the first shot goes into the bed before drawing down on the intruder, followed by a verbal warning at full volume. (I’ve tested it, and I do shout loud enough to overcome pistol deafness.) If the intruder advances on me, I’ll put him down. If he’s armed and draws on me, I’ll put him down. If he’s insane or hopelessly tripping balls, and not aggressive, I’ll wait and hope he leaves withotu further incident.

IOW, no, I will not shoot first and ask questions later.

26

While the torture scenario may be tempting, I’d go for the one shot, one kill approach, especially at night. Were I the type to break into someone’s home, if someone pointed a gun at me and yelled repeatedly to stop or they’ll shoot, I would assume they didn’t have the nerve to pull the trigger. Never pull a gun out unless you intend to use it. Don’t even bother to have one if you aren’t willing to kill with it (should it come to that.)

For the record, I’m a Texan, so perhaps my perspective is distorted by our more liberal “he needed killin’” laws. Plus, as a female, I’m not going to wait around to see if he leaves and give him a chance to overpower me.

27

Somehow I doubt that Joe Burglar is that cavalier with his own life.

28

well thats the point!

its so easy to say “shoot him” or “hold him for my nigger friends with screwdrivers” (my favorite part of Pulp Fiction). but if you evaluate it and its ramifications it gets a lot more complicated.

29

The problem with this whol “perceived threat” scenerio is that I would perceive any break-in to be a threat to me and my family. How the hell am I suppose to know what the guy is capable of even if he just stepped through the window ? How do I know he doesn’t have a buddy already in the house ? I’d rather shoot the f*cker dead-bang right there in my house than wait to see if he retreats.

I’d also go to jail if my decision was determined to be criminal. The way I see it, at least I’m still alive. You could be damn sure I’d be on the phone to Ted Nugent the next morning though !

So I guess I’ve made my decision. Now I just need to get at gun…

30

MGibson wrote:

I hold in my hand a copy of the California 1999 edition of John Machtinger’s book How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail.

Here is what it says on page 95:

[QUOTE]
When you are in your residence and you shoot an intruder, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury if three elements are present:[ol][li]An intruder unlawfully and forcibly enters your residence, or has unlawfully and forcibly entered your residence.[/li][li]The intruder is someone who is not a member of the family or the household.[/li][li]You know or have reason to believe that an unlawful entry has occurred.[/ol][/li][/QUOTE]

His basis for these statements is California Penal Code section 198.5.

31

Indiana law states that if a person is commiting a Class A or B felony (i.e.: unauthorized/ forced entry into a private dwelling with or without a weapon)and is shot dead by the legal resident, said resident is not guilty of homicide or manslaughter (voluntary nor involuntary). Plus, in the mindset of the times in which we live (crazed mothers drowning their entire progeny, gang members shooting people JUST because they are wearing a specific color, or NEED CRACK, ROB HOUSE) its really hard to keep your mind on self/familial preservation AND propensities of fairness… “Oh I’ll just wait till I see a gun before I go and kick the safety off mine…” what if the intruder is a faster draw? better aim? (harder to aim when ducking) Also, you shoot to kill, the perp won’t sue you for liability or simply rob you by sucking up unemployment because YOUR selfish act of shooting this potential Murderer / rapist/ psycho burglar has prevented him/her from ever finding gainful employment.

32

Lockfist wrote:

I would strongly suggest that you first, do the following, in this order:[LIST=A][li]take a course in gun safety, such as the ones offered by the NRA;[/li][li]rent a .22 rimfire gun at one of those places that has an indoor shooting range, and learn to use it, so you know what to expect from a basic firearm; and[/li]shop around for a gun that best suits your needs – which, in the case of home defense, may very well be a shotgun.[/LIST]

33

If someone wants your car/money/nike’s, etc. let them have them.

Deadly force is reserved for use against individual(s) who place you or your family in danger of immediate bodily harm.

An intruder to your home constitutes danger of immediate bodily harm, IMO.

All gonzo cowboy crap aside, long before you pull the trigger you must come to terms with the taking of a human life. If you have not come to terms with that you will hesitate and hesitation is death, for you and your loved ones. If you have problems with any of this, buy a baseball bat and hope for the best.

In my household I have come to terms with this: If someone breaks in my home I will kill them. I will kill them because I consider home invasion to be an unacceptable risk to my family. If this means that twelve morons in a jury put me in jail because they don’t get it, that is my fate. If this means I will rot in hell for all eternity because I didn’t get it, that is my fate. My family is more than adequately important to me to take those chances. My car/money/nikes are not.

Use Glaser Safety Slugs. They’re almost always immediate kills, and they won’t pop a ballon in the next room. Get your gun modified so that you alone can use it. There are multiple ways to do this, and they are all worthwhile. My Colt 45 auto may only be fired by a person wearing a magnetic ring, which I put on before I go to bed at night. Anyone not wearing the special ring cannot cock, chamber, or fire the weapon. Put the gun where it can be reached immediately, and have a 2 AA maglight with a red lens and fresh batteries next to it. Hold the gun in one hand and the maglight in the other as far away from your body as is practical. This way, at worst, the intruder shoots at your hand holding the light and not you, and the flash of his weapon is your target.

Best idea yet is to get good, solid windows and doors and keep them locked. And if you live in a neighborhood where this sort of thing happens often, move if you can.

b.

34

Maybe I’m missing something here.

Point #1. I don’t know about you, but I’m not at my most coherent when I’m woken up in the middle of the night. I certainly wouldn’t want to be firing a weapon when I’m half asleep at quietly moving bodies.

Point #2. Whatever happened to storing the weapon and the ammo in separate places, with the weapon being locked safely away where children can’t get to it? Is this just lip service given out by the NRA and similar groups, or do most of the gun owners actually not have a loaded weapon at their bedside ready to shoot the bad guys?

35

1)Being awakened by a home intruder will snap you into alertness like you’ve never experienced; try it sometime. I mean really, have your S.O. arrange for someone to come into the house in the middle of the night and wake you up. Adrenaline is a great eye-opener.

  1. Ammo and firearm are never stored in the same place. Hence, the importance of the flashlight. The red lens is so you’re not blinded, and so you can look at all the “n” members of your family to insure that your house has “n+1” occupants, and to insure that the “+1” occupant is not a friend, family member, or confused next door neighbor who happened into the wrong house. Believe me, from personal experience, the arrival of an uninvited guest at an inoportune hour of the evening snaps it all into crystal clarity. Myself, I can feel the presence of the S.O. next to me in bed, so I know she’s not the person walking around in the living room, and a simple glance to my left as I’m in bed assures me that the daughter is safe and sound. Anyone in the living room, or garage, or kitchen, should not be there.

  2. Every gun everywhere is always loaded at all times and is always treated as if it is. This is the single most important issue firearms owners must understand. Anyone who doesn’t understand this simple fact should not own firearms.
    And again, the ring on my finger right now means I can use my 45 but nobody else can. I’ve tried, it is impossible to discharge this firearm without the ring on, even if a round is already chambered.

And 4) I must stress that I am in no hurry to end anyone’s life. I will go a long way to get out of the way of a dangerous situation. A home intruder just makes that impossible.

b.

36

Billy Rubin, about point #1-Thank ghod! Does that mean that no-one has ever accidently shot a relative or friend sneaking into the house in the middle of the night? :frowning: I also have my doubts about anyone “snapping into alertness” from a sound sleep in the middle of the night. Personally, wouldn’t bet someones life on my ability to tell a real intruder from a wondering family member or even a bad dream when I’m suddenly awoken.

I’m also a bit confused about the possible contradictions between points #2 and #3. In point #2, you say that ammo and firearm are never stored in the same place, and in point #3, you state that every gun is loaded. Even if point #3 is to be taken as a safety lesson on how to treat guns, that still leaves point #2.
Let’s say that a real intruder has broken into your bedroom.
Either you have a loaded weapon at your bedside(in direct violation of point #2), or you have to unlock the gun from its safe, go get the ammo from the separate place you’ve hidden it, load the gun, and fire at the intruder…who has probably fallen asleep waiting for you to get your act together.

I ask again-is the lesson about locking the gun away and storing the ammo separately just a sham?

37

Thanks for the advice, tracer. That is exactly the approach I had in mind for when I decide to purchase a firearm. I don’t know why but I can count on one hand the number of friends and family who support my desire to own a gun. Because it makes them so uncomfortable, it makes me uncomfortable. Although after 9/11 I’m a lot closer to obtaining a means to defend myself if my community and government can’t.

…and tracer, based on your cite, I’m glad to see that I had the right idea about how to welcome an intruder into my home :slight_smile:

38

Point #1. I snap to alertness if the furnace makes a noise I don’t recognize. Maybe everyone doesn’t. If you don’t, stay away from guns.Get a good security system or a big dog. Nowhere in my post do I even suggest that a family member has not been killed by a moron with a gun.

I may not be reading it correctly, will you show me where I implied that nobody has ever been killed by a family member? I will state here, clearly, that no accident has ever occurred in the home or under the watch of a responsable firearms owner because the occurrence of an accident defines irresponsibility. By definition, anyone who kills a family member due to lack of alertness or ready availability of a firearm to an irresponsible person, is a moron.

Point # 2. Ammo and gun are stored separately, did I not say that?

Point #3. Every gun is loaded. Let me repeat that: ***Every Gun Is Loaded *** This means when you touch a firearm you are immediately aware of the danger inherent in its existence. Therefore you don’t point it at anyone. You don’t even think of doing anything stupid with it. I hate people who say the sort of thing I’m about to say, but here goes: There are two types of people in the world: People who treat every firearm as if it were loaded at all times, and morons.

From my position in bed, I can reach my 45 and the clip. They are stored in disparate enough locations that they could not be found even by the most determined intruder before I could find and use them.

All other firearms in the house are under lock and key, and when not in use, are physically disabled. (firing pins removed or some other disabling disasembly)

The 45 is locked due to the nature of it’s mechanisim. It wasn’t an expensive modification but it is a reliable one. Until I have it in my hand, with the magnet touching the front strap, it is not a firearm, it is a hammer. As such, it is as much a weapon as a hammer is a weapon, but until I
hold it in my hand, insert the clip, and chamber a round, it is useless as a weapon unless I am actually struck with it. Even after I chamber a round it cannot be fired by anyone besides myself. (well, the wife wears a ring too)

So I do not have a loaded weapon at my bedside. And all my firearms are safely locked and unacessable. But I can have a loaded weapon at my bedside in under 5 seconds (I just timed myself)
I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for responsable firearms owners, of which there are many. As far as people who do have loaded firearms next to their bed? Morons. Fortunately responsible owners still outnumber morons millions to one.

Just the way I’ve chosen to live, and I accept the full responsibility for it. YMMV.

b.

39

Fascinating. Can you tell me a bit more about how this mechanism works?

40

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Weird_AL_Einstein *
**

You know what I know. The mechanisim is installed in a functioning firearm, and once installed, welded in place. I have no idea what the mechanisim looks like, only that I’m an engineer and I tried everything I could to defeat it and couldn’t. I had this 45 modified many years ago(like 20) and I’m trying to find the people who made the modifications. I know it’s impossible to just put a magnet in front of the frontstrap, it has some special combination of poles or something.

I’ll keep looking for the information, if I can’t find it online I’ll post the address here.

b.