lethal response to home breakin

Great Debates
61

you guys are missing the point Billy is trying to make.

you do not fuck around with guns.

that is the end of the story. my father was involved in a hunting accident that killed my grandfather, how? he was carrying a gun with a faulty safty and tripped, fell, and the gun went off in the middle of the woods miles from any hospital or even roads. had the adults (this was when my father was very young) not been morons and fixed the safety this would not have happend.

the odds of someone dieing in an accidental gun incident where all parties are being responsible are very very VERY slim. people die when someone with a gun forgets to treat it like a lethal weapon, one that can end a life in an instant, and permanetly alter the lives of many at the same time.
judging by his attitude if billy were in a handgun accident he would be the first to call himself a moron.

as for the all guns are loaded causeing confusion try this. just pretend for a moment that guns are a bit magical, like in the movies they are self loading. if you do that then you’ll never pick up an “empty” gun and shoot someone with it will you?

does that explain it better for anyone? or wdo we need a refresher? ah what the hell.

the first rule of gun club is you do not fuck around with guns…
the second rule of gun club is YOU DO NOT FUCK AROUND WITH GUNS!
got it? gooooood.

62

Thanks, Crit. Couldn’t have said it better, though Lord knows I tried.

Billy Rubin.

63

So you admit that they are non-zero?
Here, I’ll come up with a completely ridiculous story:

Responsible Gun Owner is sleeping peacefully in his bed. Meanwhile, his teenage son is downstairs preparing to go stick up the 7-11 with a knife (has black clothes and ski mask on). Now, intruder breaks in and frightens teenage son. Teenage son runs upstairs and into RGO’s bedroom–forgetting that he’s dressed as a criminal and waving a knife. RGO pulls gun–not recognizing own son. RGO shouts “stop; I’ll shoot.” Son is frightened, full of adrenaline, has cotton over his ears, and not realizing that he is being perceived as the threat. Son continues to “charge”, knife in hand. RGO waits till last moment, but is finally forced to discharge a round into the “intruder.” Oops.

Now, I know this is somewhat far-fetched, and I’m sure you can find a way to tell me what RGO should have done instead to avoid this, and why he’s a moron. But I’m sure I can continue to tweak the story until you see where RGO was forced to make a snap-second decision, and made the wrong one–not because he’s a moron, but because he’s human.

I just have a problem with this responsible/moron dichotimy; it’s just as false as any other black/white view I’ve ever seen. Maybe the grey is more narrow here than in other areas, but I can’t believe it doesn’t exist.

64

Why don’t we do a poll? We’ll just ask everyone who has ever had a mishap of any sort involving a gun or rifle to check in, and Billy Rubin can call them all morons.

:frowning:

65

And that is why you should stay away from firearms.

I’m sure you could spend your summers dreaming up scenarios where a responsible firearms owner could, as you say, have an “accident”. Just as you could argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Or, if you’re a Catholic, try to figure out if it’s a mortal sin to miss mass on Easter sunday if you’re on the international date line at the equator and unconcious at the time.

The end result of all that debate will be the same: A responsible firearms owner will by definition not allow any circumstance or sequence of circumstances to exist which can ever result in the unintentional discharge of a firearm. If you don’t understand this you don’t understand the concept of responsibility: It does not mean, “I normally am very careful but just this one time I won’t be”. It does not mean “hey, what could happen? I’m responsible, so let’s just play cops and robbers with these guns I’m sure are unloaded” it does not mean “Hey, I’ll keep an unlocked firearm in the house at my bedside when I know I have a teenage son who might be likely to rob a 7-11”

Responsibility means, there are a set of rules, there are no exceptions, and I will never, ever break them.

I’ll certainly agree that in our world, there are few absolutes. I was taught from youth that one of the absolutes was proper firearms safety. There was no room for anything less than 100% then, there isn’t now, there never, ever will be.

As, in fact, they are.
b.

66

Well, that may be a bit ungenerous. They may be the victim of a moron.

b.

67

ya know its funny, this is a perfect example of misscomunication at its best (worst? bah whatever)

Bill isnt being vague or unclear at all, hes using plain old english without any big fancy words that send you lookin for your dictionary. Yet somehow people arent clear on what it is hes saying. unfortunatly I am way to tired to think of a way to make it any clearer.

68

I’m going to swerve this conversation to try to get it’s heading back on target here by just a bit:

Here’s the thing that bugs me(Relates to Canadian laws, maybe someone can help me with the specifics or it’s relative similarities to laws in various states)

-The person who knows criminal law other than a lawyer is usually the criminal. Sometimes (not always) better than the police officer.

-A person breaks into a home (henceforth called “Burglar”) with the knowledge that the homeowner has a very nice home entertainment system.

-The Burglar is unaware of status of the homeowner or wether they have a firearm… but then again, does not care.

-Burglar makes his way into the living room with his bag and starts unwiring the system quietly and quickly

-The homeowner (also a gunowner, henceforth called “Owner”) wakes up in the middle of the night because (s)he’s thirsty and shuffles towards the kitchen

-Owner comes across Burglar red handed and for a second, there’s a pause

NOW…
Burglar has no weapon, but is very much doing something wrong.
Owner has a weapon in the house, but his life is not in immediate danger.

Could Burglar state out loud “I’m just here for the stereo, nothing else” and then proceed to continue wrapping up the speakers and DVD player?

Owner could get his firearm and threaten Burglar with it, but wouldn’t it be an empty threat?

Burglar knows that the response time for the cops gives him a good ten-minute head start, and he’s genuinely not interested in harming anyone.

Because Owner outguns (!) Burglar, it can’t be considered a “fair fight”. Owner could phone the police and point a gun at Burglar, but logically Burglar knows that Owner cannot fire if his life is not in immediate danger.

What can Owner do?

a)suspend Burglar with firearm in empty threats of “Don’t move or I’ll shoot”? Knowing that he cannot fire even if the Burglar runs away (empty-handed or not)

b)suspend Burglar with duct tape, but realizing that Owner is 5’5" and 150lbs while Burglar is 6’2" and 190lbs, this could not be an option (and hence why Burglar picked this place in the first place)

c)let Burglar go with the Home Entertainment system that will take months to replace (and once replaced, will become a target for Burglar to do it all again), chancing with the police and their wonderful track record of recovering stolen items and their possessors.
Who is the winner in this situation?

Now let’s make a modification or two:
1)Burglar enters home with attitude and foresight (knows his rights)
2)Owner stubles toward kitchen.
3)Burglar is spotted.
4)Burglar jumps Owner to restrain them with duct tape
5)Owner restrained
6)Burglar continues on their merry way

or…

1)Burglar enters home with attitude and foresight (knows his rights)
2)Owner stubles toward kitchen armed with gun.
3)Burglar is spotted.
4)Owner states “I have a gun”
5)Burglar states “I have no weapon, I’m not here to hurt you, I just want the stereo. I’ll be about two minutes, then I’m gone.”
6)Burglar continues on their merry way

hmm, well… let’s do this now…

4)Burglar jumps Owner to restrain him with duct tape
5)Owner retreats to bedroom and grabs handgun
6)Burglar, being right on Owner’s heels manages to get on top of Owner before he has a chance to load/cock/aim gun.
7)Burglar restrains Owner
8)Burglar pockets gun and continues on their merry way

Uh oh… let’s go back a bit…
1)Burglar enters with attitude and foresight
2)Owner hears something in the living room (is alone in house, no pets: THINKS something is wrong)
3)Burglar continues burgling
4)Owner listens, now KNOWS something is wrong
5)Owner pulls out gun, loads/cocks/unsafeties

<What CAN the owner do now?>

6)Owner quietly shuffles out to the living room, gun in hand
7)Burglar notices Owner
8)Owner (by definition of law) must say “I have a gun”
9)Burglar jumps Owner to restrain him. Owner only gets out “I have a-WAUGH!”

IF the gun goes off and the Burglar is injured but lives, IIRC, the Owner can be criminally prosecuted for firing without warning, or using a firearm in what could be considered a hand-to-hand fight (unfair). According to Canadian law (IIRC-please somebody chime in with the right and wrong in this), if the Burglar (or ANYbody) came at you with a baseball bat, you still could not use a firearm to defend yourself, because that’s no longer considered defense.

IF the gun doesn’t go off, because the owner is aware of the laws and knows he cannot take a life without justification (warning, mortal threat), he is then restrained by Burglar, who now takes the gun out of Owner’s hand.

Burglar, now aware that the laws that are made to protect the individual do not apply to his situation because he is, in fact, a law-breaker. Kills the Owner with his own gun thereby making it considerably harder for him to get caught (no witnesses). Runs off with stereo, gun (or maybe leaves it behind) and pretty good chance of getting away with it.
Who’s the winner here?

Like I said, If my understanding of the laws is wrong, please educate me, but this is what I was taught in an introductory law course way back when. I was stunned to read about all this and my understanding was that, in all cases, it seemed that the laws were made to protect the burglar.

IF the burglar went in with a recording device and a bulletproof vest (just in case of jumpy gunowner), he might just be able to make it.

The burglar could very well be guilty of B&E, theft/burglary, maybe even assault, rape or murder. But what difference is it when he gets to walk away?

The police can’t do anything unless something illegal occurs. (Must be caught in the act or after the act is done)
The police constantly declare that only THEY have the right (due to training) to pick when to fire and when not to, limited by their own rules (they cannot fire on an unarmed person either).
If I understand the laws and rules correctly, it seems to me that the best way to deal with a home invasion situation is to
1)Kill the invader (warning or no, who’s going to say)
2)Clean up the house very quickly
3)Dispose of the body (Lime, river & cement, whatever)
4)Make no mention of the event to anyone (not law enforcement, not the media, not the family or friends)
I mean, I hope the laws are better than that, but I cannot believe that a textbook situation occurs (complete with warnings and retreats) normally in home invasion situations. And many times it’s the Owner who gets shafted by the courts by dealing with a situation that he didn’t invite.

Tell me I’m wrong, please!

69

I understand plain old English just fine. I was just pointing out a few facts.

  1. The “mag-lock rings” aren’t secure enough for my tastes.

  2. Humans buy guns. All humans make mistakes.

  3. There seems to be a bit of confusion about how many people actually own guns.

  4. Most importantly, not everyone who crawls through a bedroom window in the middle of the night is a robber out to threaten your family.

70

There’s a point someone else made I’d like to restate and another I’d respectfully like to make.

Restatement: “Everybody’s situation is different.”

Exactly. Some of us have had formal gun training and some haven’t. Some are comfortable with guns and some aren’t. Some have kids or relatives that might be mistaken as an interuder and some don’t. Some have personal beliefs that prevent them from taking another’s life, even a hellbent intruder’s, and some of us don’t.

Evaluate your own situation and know beforehand how you would handle it because when it happens you likely not have the luxury of time to think and rethink your response.

Second point: A home invasion and latenight break very well may require two different responses.

Somebody break’s into my house latenight and my gut feeling is they’re after goods. My Baretta 40 cal. has a full clip of hollowpoints but NONE chambered. It’s hidden behind my dresser on a nail where I have to move the dresser (no easy task) to get to it and chamber a round (which makes an awfully loud and scary noise) before it’s ready for business. Both of these precautions I believe drastically reduce the possibility of mistaken identity.

A home invasion might likely occur in the evening, or at least while occupants are at home and awake. Someone wants to come into MY home and take control? Someone wants to force their will on my wife? Someone wants to have say over the health of my daughter? Fuck them. I’m sorry but fuck them. I’ve got a S&W 44 mag. in a central location downstairs that’s difficult to reach (unless your hands are in the air) that has enormous stopping power. You’ve got to be at least 6 foot tall to reach it and know of it’s unusual location to find it but I can, in a heartbeat, bring it’s chambered self down on someone I’ve recognized is threating my family with rape or murder in a very blunt manner.

To go out in public with a gun and look for trouble is inexcusable. To react decisively when someone made a conscious decision to assult your family is, I think, part of my duth as a husband and father. I don’t want it to happen (again) but I’m ready for it.

71

dangit, I meant “duty”, not “duth”.

D’ oh!
Gabby.

72

  1. What would be secure enough; welding the muzzle shut? I’ll have to venture a guess that this comment is made strictly for the purpose of adding weight to your lightweight arguments. Do you know how many combinations of keys that General Motors use? No? Maybe you should check that out. The number of in-use combinations for GM ignitions makes it far, far more likely that a total stranger will walk up to a truck at random and be able to get in and start it, than say, a burglar coming into my home, finding the firearm in it’s hiding place, knowing how to get it out of it’s hiding place, finding the hiding place of the clip, knowing how to get the clip out of it’s hiding place, and having the correct ring to fire the weapon before I can hit him/her with a lamp.

  2. Humans buy guns. Dead humans made mistakes. Responsible firearms owners never do. I checked with someone else, I typed it in English that time for sure.

3)Okay, if you understand english, maybe I’m not speaking it correctly:Americans own guns. Exactly how many Americans own guns is fairly irrelevant. Figures I could find state that the number of americans who own guns (“N”)happen to own 222 million of them; thus 222 million/average number of firearms per owner = N (approximately)

4)Name a legitimate reason for a person who doesn’t live in my home to be climbing in my bedroom window in the middle of the night. Ah, no, you can’t, because there isn’t one.

b.

73

**

What makes a firearm secure enough for your taste?

**

This is true. I guess I must be one of those dead idiots I keep hearing about because I have had an accident with a firearm in the past. I accidentally dicharged a firearm in my home once. Go ahead Billy Rubin and pounce on me for being such a complete and total idiot for making a mistake. Although I did make an admittedly stupid mistake I did keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction at all times. The only harm done was a ringing in my right ear for about 5 minutes.

**

Last time I heard it was about 44,000,000 in total with about 222,000,000 firearms in the hands of Americans. I think a lot of gun owners own more then one.

That’s true, which is why it is important to identify your target before you start shooting. It might be some stranger who just came into my home for a ham sandwich. How am I to know? If someone breaks into my home the only safe conclusion I can come to is that he is a threat to the physical well being of my wife and I as well as our property.

Marc

74

Yes, but unfortunately proper use of the English language does not make a statement correct.

All humans make mistakes. Ever heard the phrase “to err is human…”? Responsible humans minimize risks. When the risks are as dire as with a firearm, responsible humans make sure to minimize those risks until they are practically zero. Practically zero != Absolutely zero.

Freak things occur that people have no control over. There is some finite probability that all your molecules will cease to exist on earth, and reassemble themselves on the moon. There is some finite probability (much greater, I would imagine), that a nerve in your trigger finger will spontaneously fire, twitching your finger even when you didn’t mean to. There’s some finite probability that that bullet (which you had responsibly aimed in a safe direction), will ricochet into someone you did not mean to hit.

So what did this “moron” do wrong? Fail to develop spontaneous control over probability?

75

RE: Number of guns that people own…

Remember that a lot of people are gun collectors, with several dozen (or more) guns in their possession. Heck, my own family owns five rifles, five pistols, and a shotgun.

And a note about responsibility… remember, that’s eleven guns. In a household that had eight children. You’d think that, given those numbers, we should’ve had an “accident” by now, right? Wrong. Not a single accidental discharge, not one single person hurt. Why? Because we have had it long instilled in us that a gun is not a toy. We know not to fuck around with one. We know not to treat it lightly.

Czar, I am picking up the implication from your posts that you have a low opinion of the responsibility of gun owners. While it may not have been deliberate on your part, I resent that implication highly.

76

Czarcasm, I both like and respect you, but I think this statement needs re-thinking.

While factually true, I think it is a specious argument. It’s like saying “not everyone who points a gun at you is going to shoot you”. Yes, it’s factually true, but irrelevant as far as determining what the proper response is.

77

You know, this statement bothered me when I first read it, and it still bothers me now. I figured I might leave and come back to it and (at the risk of joining the bandwagon) I have to agree with most who have also brought this up.

Czardude, can you give me a realistic situation where someone is doing this? I mean, I graduated from college a while ago, so that sort of shenanigans is kind of old for me, especially if I live in a house where firearms are kept.

So please give me a situation where:
a) Someone is crawling into a bedroom window who
b) Is NOT a robber or someone threatening a family/individual where
c) firearms are kept during
d) the middle of the night

I’d seriously like to know.

78

well in my neighbor hood with the crackheads and other freaks you can bet that anyone coming in my window is in serious danger of loosing their life. to be honest, and given all the possibilitys I might give a warning, I might just shoot their asses. The cops around here wouldn’t even blink. my one gun is loaded, its a 22 cal long rifle with an internal magazine not a clip. in addition to the safety it has an extra locking position for the chamber that requires some knowledge of the gun to get it to close and be ready to fire. no I dont like the idea of killing someone, but there is ZERO reason for anyone to be in my house in the middle of the night uninvited. If they want a ham sandwich they can wait for subway to open.

79

to answer the OP: i shoot to kill, immediatly, if someone breaks into my home. it wont bother me and i don’t care what his intentions were. i only hope he’s not too much of a bleeder, but the weapon i have will no doubt be messy.

billy- i agree with most of what you say, but i have a problem with the math-- if the average guy has one gun, then no one can own more than one (because no one can own “less than one” to make the average come out!)

okay, so im a smartass!

80

What would make the mag-lock more suitable to my tastes? just 100 combinations.

As far as the situation where the person crawling through the window is the big, bad robber out to rape and kill your household? Gee, this one’s kinda hard, but I’ll give it a shot.
Your spouse comes home late, but has forgotten her/his keys, and doesn’t want to wake you up out of consideraton or embarassment. Your errant child comes home after she/he is supposted to, and doesn’t want to get caught by the parents. your ever-vigilant next-door neighbor sees you crawling through the window because you locked yourself out, and decides to be a hero. Your spouse hears a noise out the window, opens it and looks out, leaning over, and you are startled awake with the site of somebody escaping from your castle.
Should I go on? Most of the time, people buy handguns for self-protection. Unfortunately, most of the time they are finally used a tragedy ensues. Everyone thinks that they’ve got a handle on how to use handguns, and how to hide them from both strangers and family members. The strangers(thieves) have figured out most of the hiding places already, which is where some of the weapons on the “black market” come from.
As far as your children are concerned, try this test: Offer them a new twenty dollar bill and the promise of no repercussions if they can find(but not touch) where you have hidden your handgun. And an extra five-spot if they can locate the ammo for it, if you keep it separate.