I don’t think this is going to help if you really want to get this question answered.
Americans do talk about race a lot and are kind of obsessive about it. But the topic is usually broached in a superficial way, perhaps because so many white people are afraid of being tarred as racists. Maybe it’s better to put it this way: what might be needed is a frank discussion about the history of race, not just race itself. People here very much buy into the idea of America as a land of opportunity. And while they can’t deny that this wasn’t not true for a lot of people historically, but they have trouble seeing or acknowledging that some of the after effects of historical discrimination are still around. A big part of the American character, I think, is the idea that you can always overcome your past and do what you want if you are determined enough. And while I wouldn’t want to discourage that viewpoint I think it does lead people to give short shrift to history and take the view that if you declare that the past is over, it no longer affects what is going on in the present. To say the least that’s oversimplistic.
And yes, it’s also true that people on all sides of any race-related issue will twist things to their own ends. It’s hard to have a serious discussion about anything with the amount of agenda-related spin and sometimes ass-covering that goes on. A lot of the time these types of conversations either start with collective blaming, and from there it’s pretty much impossible to get anywhere.
Which demonstrates why “a frank discussion of race” is not going to be either possible or helpful.
Note that “by and large” gets immediately changed to “100%”. This is because liberals just as much as anyone else are guilty of black and white (heh) thinking about race. Whack-A-Mile has only two options for thinking about race -[ol][li]Blacks are the victims of racism, and [*]Crimethink![/ol]What I said doesn’t fit into the first slot, and so immediately he begins to try to force me into the second. [/li]
A jerking knee has no nuance. Discussing race isn’t going to do any good - it just irritates those who would rather not think about it, and just re-spout all the stuff from the 60s when it actually had relevance.
Do you contend that there are not processes external to African Americans that remain active to the present and have the effect of hampering their ability to “advance their positions” and keep them from “preying on themselves”?
It sounds like you’re suggesting that institutionalized slavery was the only such factor, and since it is long over, current conditions can be attributed to some kind of factor intrinsic to African Americans.
Is that an accurate reflection of your opinion? I’m curious as to your opinion about what such an intrinsic factor might be that causes African Americans to prey on themselves or to fail to advance their positions?
Actually, almost the opposite - a frank discussion is only going to be possible when and if white people no longer care about being called racist.
The accusation of racism is supposed to be the trump card that ends discussion. If a discussion if going to be truly frank, then neither side can shut off discussion once it starts to trend against their position.
They were allowed to; blacks were not. Historically, for a black to “advance his position” would just mean that the local white authorities would simply take everything away from him, and quite possibly kill him in the process. Historically, the path of survival for them has been to avoid prosperity. Only since the 60s has it been possible for any serious attempt to improve their collective position; that isn’t really that much time for such a slog against ingrained prejudice and poverty.
We have our first black president and a pretty recent history of of severe racism. We have a white population that is used to being the dominant race and culture, and now many of them are concerned that in the near future they and their children will no longer be the dominant race. It’s completely understandable and unavodable that racial feelings will come to the surface. That is exacerbated by the GOP’s strategy of actively fanning racial fears and then defending that by pointing to racism among blacks.
We have to acknowledge that racial fears exist in us and sometimes skews our judgment. It’s a factual part of our human make up. It’s very possible for people to be influenced by race when making a judgement call even when we make a conscious effort not to be. Being conscious of this we can work on it and more importantly, not panic over a common human fraility. {I’m speaking only of minor non violent racial awareness that skews our judgement and creates a degree of seperation}
We need perspective. There’s an attitude among whites of "Get over it already"that is truth based but not realistic. This is demonstrated by some whites own racial fears and misplaced righteous indignation at the merest hint of prejudice and racism on the part of blacks.
Look at the black Panther thing. Holter, Obama, Black Panther, of course they went free because of race. Other facts don’t seem to matter.
Look at the frequent use of “Just imagine if a white guy said that” Whites have little perspective of what blacks in this country have actually gone through. Instead of understanding how extreme experiences can have lasting effect they’d rather say “get over it” and point the accusing finger. People need to stop using real or potential racism in others to justify or mask their own.
So what do we do after we’ve dragged it out and looked at it?
Stop being so quick to jump to the racist conclusion. Stop being so eager to accuse.
“I don’t think Obama is a good president”
“That’s because you’re racist”
Obama appointed another black person to his cabinet
“See I knew he hated white people”
Stop using a racism detecter to minutely examine every act and conversation.
Strongly condem strong and clear racism and the use of racism as a political tactic.
If you’re in the Tea Party and the guy next to you is overtly racist then say something. Say something to the leaders.
If you’re in a public forum and your friend says “Now you’ll see what it’s like to be ruled by a black man cracker” then condem that language.
Stop making excuses for jerks like Briebart and the turds on Fox news for fanning the fires of racism for a political agenda. It’s reprehensible. Decent conservatives should be able to see it and shut them down on it.
Let’s not be afraid to acknowledge the existance of racial feelings and attitudes, but let’s not let it domonate our minds to the extent that we don’t get things done.
I’m not in a position to say there are NO ongoing disadvantageous “processes external to African Americans.” I don’t mean to cop out - simply acknowledging that I am not informed enough to identify what they may be. If you would be so kind as to offer some candidates, I will be happy to offer my impressions. But I’m just a middle-aged white guy, no student on race relations/history.
What confuses me is when I see many instances in which other minority/immigrant groups - Jews, Asians, hispanics - that successfully look towards themselves and (at least to some extent) show signs of improving their position from one generation to the next.
Yes, there are many factors stacked against poor black Americans. But from my privileged position it seems there are also considerable opportunities available as well. And it confuses and frustrates me to the extent it appears generations of African Americans appear to not take advantage of those opportunities. One that often impresses me is that, at least across sizeable portions of many black communities, there seems to be a lack of appreciation for the benefits to be derived from education.
As I’ve said, I am not a student of race relations/cultures. But to take one example, I believe I have read that within some black communities some things such as young mothers bearing children out of wedlock is not necessarily viewed as a negative. (Please correct me if I am wrong in this understanding.) In my ignorance, unless you live in an agricultural society and desire in-house labor, giving birth to kids you are not in a position to support is not simply a cultural choice. I do not mind opining that it is undesireable, not simply a manifestaton of a “different” culture.
I’d agree with this. I think there is a basis in truth for the “get over it” sentiment but it needs to be appraoched with some realsitic perspectve. We need to work at getting over it rather than demanding “they” get over it while minimizing lingering racism among the white population.
Since the OP suggests a black/white framework, that’s what I’ll assume.
A frank discussion on race is where whites can give their opinion without fearing being thought of as racists and blacks can give opinions without being thought of as militant whiners. Since race is such a part of many peoples’ identities, race discussions usually end up as visceral blame games. One party pigeon-holes the other into the racist or whiner label and then argues against that instead of what the person is saying.
A frank discussion would be empathetic. Whites would understand that there are rigid structures within society that limit mobility for blacks no matter how hard they work. Blacks would understand that whites have it hard too, and that they do not automatically get everything in life because they are white. Whites would understand that, despite having a black president and being decades away from Jim Crow, racism is still very strong in society, and it is impossible to simply “get over it and move on”. Blacks would understand that hard-working middle class whites often feel discriminated against because they see a black guy get a job over them even though they are more qualified.
Ultimately, whites have to understand that they are simply unable to understand certain aspects of what it is to be black in this society, and when blacks complain about something, they are not just whining about slavery. And blacks have to understand that in order to be taken seriously, they have to take some responsibility for the current state of affairs.
Not arguing, simply asking for information/opinions: What is your impression of the gains that have been made in the past 50 years? Is the pace of improvement increasing/steady/declining? Are there any other groups that can be compared over a similar period? Asian boat people? Today’s Muslims?
And hell, don’t talk to any number of Jews about a couple of hundred years of servitude and oppression! I have always been impressed at Jews’ historical willingness to say “Fuck you” to a majority culture which excluded them from its institutions, and to form their own. Why are blacks incapable of doing the same?
Also, I think it is somewhat hyperbolic to say that “for a black to ‘advance his position’ would just mean that the local white authorities would simply take everything away from him, and quite possibly kill him in the process.” While I am certainly not naive or revisionist enough to claim that northern blacks enjoyed equality, I think a great many blacks improved their situations in the early 20th century - at least those willing to migrate. While formal and informal segregation were very real, I think it an exaggeration to say whites took everything away from blacks and possibly killed them. I think it might be more accurate to say that white institutions drew any number of lines which were exceedingly difficult if not impossible for blacks to cross.
In my experience only (read that again) black Americans do not let me forget they are black. This is not the case (again for me) with Jews or Asians or Hispanics or what have you.
Personally I want to deal with an individual as an individual regardless of gender or race or creed. They are cool or an asshole or something in between regardless of skin color or religious beliefs. If I like them or do not like them it will be based on how they treat me and nothing else.
While many groups (including women which is 50% of the population) may have an axe to grind for past injustices it seems with black people it is always much closer to the surface and is more likely to color (no pun intended) the relationship. Short of WASP men most everyone in the US can claim some grievance.
Note I am painting with a broad brush. I have black friends and enjoy their company a lot. I truly do not think of them as “black” nor do I think they see me as “white”. Of course it is obvious what our skin color is but it is the furthest thing from our minds. To each other we are just two dudes (or dude/dudette as the case may be) and skin color is so inconsequential as to not be worthy of a moment’s thought. (I have had some fantastic discussions about race with them though but that is another thing and knowing each other I think it was enlightening for both sides).
Anyone who wants a frank discussion is going to benefit.
Do you see my point based on the thread so far? I posted something at odds with the received wisdom about race. Almost immediately we see folks like Whack-A-Mole quite blatantly making things up and responding to that, and saying fairly explicitly that he is not prepared to consider nuance in any fashion - any effort to be accurate will be ignored in favor of the kind of caricatured thinking that is apparently all he wants to see.
A “frank” discussion under those circumstances? Ain’t gonna happen.
It is possible to have a frank discussion under more reasonable circumstances. My feeling is that it will only be possible to maintain those circumstances after the racists die off. Most of the white ones are dead or discredited in the US already. Accordingly…
What makes you think the problem can be made to go away at all? There is no fix for the “race problem.” We can perhaps manage race relations better, but they will always be in state of flux, at times getting better and at times getting worse. But even with the most skillful management, race will always be a fault line in society likely to crack under stress.
I have always been impressed at Jews’ historical willingness to say “Fuck you” to a majority culture which excluded them from its institutions, and to form their own. Why are blacks incapable of doing the same?