I accepted (or at least did not talk about) your claim that I said “by and large” equates to “100%”.
I asked you to define what “by and large” means.
You have so far not answered that.
One thing is for sure, “by and large” is light years away from the nuance you seem to think I am avoiding.
Whiny middle-aged voice on:
“I didn’t knoe Abraam Lincoln was Jewish!”
A guy walks up to his neighbor every day for fifty years and punches him in the face. When year fifty-one rolls around, the guy goes up and stands in front of his neighbor and says, “Hi, idiot.”
“What do you want?” the neighbor asks.
“Well, you’re hostile,” the guy says. “What’s your problem?”
“You’ve punched me in the face every day for fifty years and now you’re calling me an idiot.”
“Well, I’ve stopped punching you, idiot. You need to get over it. Then I’ll stop calling you an idiot.”
So lead by example.
I hear this often. It is simply not true. Slavery - institutionalised or otherwise - was commonplace from the dawn of time until very recently. The lot of blacks in America was not exceptional. Slaves working mines in Rome or Greece would envy them.
Hmm… maybe if Americans learned more of ancient history in school…?
We need to acknowledge that racism exists in many if not most of us, when we recognize someone as part of the “other” and that recognition influences our behaviour. It’s part of the subtlty Obama spoke of in his speech when he referenced his grandmother. So yes, we as a collective group are racist ti varying degrees. Acknowledgeing that we don’t need to let the mere accusation be an indication of evil and hatred and shut down a discussion.
Can’t expect you to understand. The role of race in American history is outside the Canadian experience. I suppose you have your own racial tensions, whites vs. Indians vs. Asians, but it’s nothing like the American experience.
My belief that our better nature can overcome our worse nature. It’s been demonstrated time and again in the past.
What makes you think that? 
To some extent this raises the issue of assimilation. My understanding is that many minority groups consider it a negative concept, and believe they should be accepted as they are. Blacks do not have the option of changing their skin color as easily as a muslim could shed her burkha (sp?) or a jew his yarmulke. Even the “whitest black” will encounter racism at least occasionally (altho I believe there is an aspect of one seeing the amount of racism they want to see.)
I’m a caucasian mutt of European descent, with no religion and no historical ethnic loyalty. From my viewpoint it confuses me to see people volitionally adopting appearances/behaviors that seem aimed at emphasizing their difference, and then complaining that they are treated differently.
I intended to communicate that the lot of enslaved blacks was unique within Americans, as I thought we were discussing American society. Were any other groups systemmatically enslaved in America? If not, than I stand by my original statement.
Tho I could imagine Native Americans presenting a decent argument. Hell, given the choice, they might have chosen slavery over extermination…
Underlying this whole discussion is the fundamental dialog:
Spoken by the dominant voice : “Why can’t they be more like us?”
Spoken by the subordinate voice : “I shouldn’t have to be like them, and why do they get to decide how someone should be? Why can’t they let us be?”
The same exact dialog occurs when the rich talk about the poor, or men and women talk about each other. All the rest is just petty details.
Carry on.
Indeed.
You can see this in something as basic as youth versus elders (for lack of a better way to put it). Regardless of race or whatnot you will see this division simply on age. Kids dress the way the current trends dictate which often puzzle their elders.
Happened to me when I was a kid and now as a middle aged guy I puzzle at them thinking, “Seriously dude! What’s with the baggy pants practically hanging around your knees and your underwear showing?”
In the end if that is what they want to wear it is not for me to say no but I still wonder at it and they of course see me as the old square.
I swore when I was young I would not become “that guy” but alas the universe plays these tricks on us. (And I am not THAT square such that I will get in their face about it…just dismays me is all.)
Of course there is residual racism in the U.S., as in every country in the world.
The people who keep referring ad nauseum to the need for a “frank discussion on race” really mean “White people need to keep apologizing until everything is fixed.”
It would be preferable if everyone tried harder to act decently and quit yammering.
By the way, the phrase “a frank discussion” brings to mind this famous cartoon from when France was in turmoil over the Dreyfus Affair. In the top panel, a French family at dinner is told by the head of the household not to mention the Affair. In the bottom panel, a frank discussion has broken out.
Dinsdale, read this.
This happened in 1921, well within living memory. And yet the whole topic was completely ignored until very recently. I grew up in Oklahoma and never heard of it until the last few years. I’m pretty sure black kids in Tulsa knew about it, though.
Tulsa is still a very racially divided city. Would it surprise you to find out that some blacks in Tulsa don’t necessarily believe that white culture will allow them to succeed? And if you don’t believe that you’ll be allowed to succeed in the dominant culture, why bother trying?
Please note that these people had created the exact sort of self-contained community that you’ve mentioned - and people were killed and their community destroyed because of it.
My grandmother would have been about 25 when this happened. I somehow think that if her family had been ruined by these riots, my outlook on life would be a whole lot different, don’tcha know. And I suspect that my kids’ feelings about “success in mainstream culture” would be greatly affected by that.
There really isn’t a problem with Italian American race relations. You might not have the same perspective we do because you do not have as much of a history of slavery and you do not face a demographically significant wave of illegal immigration. How much influence did the Klu Klux Klan have in Canadian politics over the last couple of hundred years? We recently had a senator pass away that was a member of the Klan, he renounced his afilliations but the Klan was so ubiquitous that being a member of the Klan was de rigeur for politicians in some districts.
We can either try to pretend none of that ever happened and that we are all starting off on the same level playing field or we can recognize the past injustice, recognize that there is a limit to what we can do to recitfy that injustice and then and ONLY then can we move forward.
I don’t think there is any comparable group in America in recent times. Go far back enough and an analogy could be made with the Native Americans, where a special point was made of destroying any groups that actually succeeded in adopting “civilized” ways.
Because they weren’t allowed. They weren’t simply excluded from white society; if they prospered on their own everything they had would be taken from them.
Hardly, it’s the simple truth. Some black guy did too well, his home and property and money would be confiscated and he’d have a good chance of being killed as an example to others who might be getting uppity.
Thanks, redtail. I admit that when I was thinking of “the North” I was thinking of Chicago, Detroit, and the Northeast rather than Tulsa. Are you aware of other such incidents?
And I kind of disagree with your characterization of 1921 as being “well-within living memory.” I don’t know all that many nonagenarians. Instead, my middle-aged memory is of multiple instances in which blacks torched and looted their own communities in the 60s and more recently.
All people , especially adolescents, try to create some kind of identity. What we’re talking about is that with every unique indentityor attempt at it, we offer basic human respect and equal consideration.
It doesn’t matter if they wear baggy pants, spiked purple hair, pierced noses and lips, goth make up.
I agree that current racism is not the black community’s biggest problem. I think PAST racism is at least a large part of the black community’s problem. The two biggest current problems in the black community are the drug laws and rap music. We simply have too many black men in jail for drug offenses that a college student would get a stern lecture for. The lyrics of much of the rap music out today are poisonous.
Is it fair to say that you don’t feel comfortable to speculate about external factors that might be associated with disproportionately negative outcomes occuring among African Americans, but you do feel comfortable proposing that they “prey on themselves” and that there is something intrinsic about their failing to advance their positions?
Why is it, do you think, that you don’t feel comfortable speculating about societal factors, but appear not to have qualms regarding speculation about intrinsically African American factors?
