Man, Der trihs - at least you are consistent. You start off saying something that contains a germ with which I agree, and then seem intent upon dispelling any sympathy through reliance on extreme and unsupported generalities.
Please provide me support for your blanket assertions that “if they prospered on their own everything they had would be taken from them.” Just one local example that immediately comes to mind: is the Johnson Publishing Company the exception that proves the rule? How exactly has “everything been taken away from” the Johnson family?
No, I do not believe that would be fair to say. I offered that I am ignorant as to what those factors might be, or how they might best be described. I readily acknowledge that there continues to be at least some institutional and personal discrimination against blacks based on nothing more than their skin color. What other “external factors” do you suggest.
Offer some candidates, and I will speculate away. But don’t simply characterize my position in a manner that allows you to create a convenient strawman.
Please dispel my ignorance. When I see hispanics travelling distances to work their asses off in shit jobs, while establishing solid communities and experiencing generational improvement in their lot - are such shit jobs and lifestyles unavailable to blacks? Maybe so, but I’m not sure. In my limited personal experience, the types of people who dislike blacks, are pretty likely to dislike “Mexicans” as well.
There was a prosperous black middle class that started to form in the late 19th century and was pretty much solidified by the early 20th. Perhaps not on the same scale there was also Rosewood, Florida where race riots destroyed the town as blacks abandoned the town fleeing for their lives. There are less extreme examples than Tulsa and Rosewood though. In 1919 in Elaine, Arkansas a bunch of black tenant farmers got together in an attempt to get better prices for the cotton they were producing. Whites came down on them hard and if you look at the newspapers of the day --Arkansas Gazette and Arkansas Democrat-- or other primary documents you see words like uprising and insurrection used a lot to describe the actions of blacks organizing. I remember one article referring to a black victim of lynching as having been “put to death” which conjures images of the state acting in its official capacity or putting an animal to death.
It’s true, Der Trihs’ hyperbolic statements aren’t really helping the discussion along but there is some truth to his statements.
You’re missing that NA society is an evolution of European society, with its history of villeins, serfs, slaves, peasants, etc. Not to forget regular slaving raids by Arabs.
It is indeed powerful and must be used only for good.
I guess I’m part of the problem when it comes to avoiding frank discussions on race. Just last night I blew a golden opportunity for dialogue.
I was leaving the hospital where I work after a 14-hour day. I was heading down a narrow sidewalk in front of the ER when I saw a young black man coming my way. As we got closer I saw that he appeared to be playing the game of “Sidewalk Chicken”, where you parade down the middle of the walk leaving no room for the other person to pass, in hopes that he will be intimidated into stepping off into the gutter to avoid you**. It was late, I was tired and in no mood for Sidewalk Chicken, so I just held to my side of the walk until he veered over to his side at the last moment, saying something unintelligible to me as he passed. I withheld comment. After I’d walked another hundred feet or so he yelled at my back “Hey! When somebody says something to you you’re supposed to say something back!! BITCH!!!”
Now here was a terrific opportunity to engage in a frank conversation about race. I should have gone back and explained to him that I (possibly entirely in error) had made the assumption that he was trying to crowd me off the sidewalk with a background motivation of racial hostility, and that he might have mistaken my silence as contempt for him as an African-American person, and that we should get together over a latte for a more in-detail frank discussion of racial perceptions.
But I just kept on going.
Can’t it be residual and blatant?
What I can personally do is try to act decently and support businesses and candidates who do the same. What I’d like to see government do is set up more sting operations in the area of housing and bank loans, to expose and penalize people who continue to discriminate in those areas. Paying attention to the admonitions of Donna Brazile is low on my list of priorities.
*Kreskin
**Sidewalk Chicken works better if you’re in a large group.
Your resistance to consider trends across history and geography, and how they might become internalized by a group as endemic, appears to me to be in line with “moving the goalposts”. It suggests that your mind is somehow made up and it would be extremely difficult for somone to successfully present any evidence that would change that.
Certainly, inasmuch as a Goth can dress up in a suit while a black person cannot change their skin color that is an important difference.
That said while the Goth is in Goth clothing I bet they get harassed. They are “different” and as long as they are identifiably different they will likely suffer for it.
With the important caveat noted why is this different than being black?
First, you can’t fairly compare recent, voluntary immigrants to Blacks in the states. There is obviously a heavy selection bias there. For example, compare the success of Indian, Pakistani, Ethiopian, Chinese, or West Indian immigrants to those countries as a whole.
Second, many of the groups you mention never had as many, or as pervasive negative stereotypes against them. There have been many studies to support the fact that, as social creatures, we often live up or down to stereotypes and perceptions. Take a brief look at any GD thread that talks about race, sports, or income. I will bet 90% of them will have someone who indicates the root cause of whatever disparity is Black intellectual inferiority. The SDMB members are a pretty educated, rational group, yet this type of thinking persists. Those threads only reveal the small minority of people who have the inclination to share their bigoted and unsupportable opinions. A much greater percentage of the population has similar biases that likely color the way their view and interact in the world. What effect do you think that has when the the teachers, doctors, small business owners, etc. among us go out in to the world making decisions based on their perception that a person’s skin color affects their IQ or worthiness? Do they pre-screen resumes based on how the name sounds? Do they unconsciously give them worse grades? Do they give them unequal medical treatment?
Third, and most importantly, Black have madesignificantgainssince the civil rights movement. Things aren’t equal, nor are they perfect, but they are improving to anyone who is paying attention. The fact that we are blind to that fact, IMO, alludes to the fact that Blacks are still often judged by the worst among us; a completely different standard is applied to most others.
Again, plenty of Black people take advantages of opportunities and education. While I think there is a demonstrable lack of appreciation for education in the Black community, I think that it overlaps just as neatly with poverty, and overall societal expectations. This indicates to me that collective measures would be just as effective, and are just as necessary, as cultural shifts within the Black community.
It’s certainly viewed as a negative, but often not treated so punitively as to be debilitating. I don’t think you will find many people who think it’s a good thing to have a kid out of wedlock. More importantly, you need to look at why people are having kids out of wedlock in the first place. All these things don’t happen in a vacuum.
As much as I hope you read the cites I linked to, I think it’s often just as instructive to look within yourself to see how big a factor race is. Do you react differently to Black stranger approaching you on the street than you would a White one? Do you find Blacks as attractive as Whites? Would you live in a majority Black neighborhood? Would you go to a historically Black college? Do you personally know people who are racist, and do they suffer any consequences for their beliefs?
I’m not doing anything of the sort. I’m asking in order to clarify my understanding of your position. It seems to me that even in advance of my offering any “possible candidates”, it’s worthwhile to consider what you already believe to be the case. And it really does appear that while you describe yourself as so ignorant on the topic that you could not take a stab at societal reasons that might explain the manifest problems that disproportionately affect African Americans, you’ve go no problem in presuming that intrinsic ones exist, and that they involve being lazy, or at least relatively less industrious than hispanics you’ve “seen” traveling great distances, and offering that you’ve heard that African Americans have deviant cultural values regarding out-of-childhood wedlock.
So, why are you prepared to put forward arguments about what you’ve “heard” about African Americans and are hesitant to put forward arguments that I’m sure you’ve heard about American society? I’d like you to consider that any time you are suggesting some explanation that is based on the premise that African Americans have deviant values from you or from mainstream society, you ought to give that a great deal of scrutiny, rather than accepting it as fact.
Here’s some highlights exerpted from just one paper on the subject. It included qualitative interviews of African American single mothers, but much of what I’ve cut and pasted here comes from the introduction. For context, what you are arguing for is referred to as the cultural explanation, whereas I would favor the structural explanation
I’m not sure I set the goalposts anywhere from where they might be moved. IIRC, these white on black race riots were first mentioned after I disputed DT’s overly broad (IMO) claim that every time blacks succeeded their gains were taken from them, and they were often killed. As we are discussing race relations in America in 2010, I don’t think it entirely inappropriate for me to comment that the examples given occurred some time ago, and do not appear to have occurred throughout the entire country.
Good post. I wold like to point out that there is evidence of racism among Obama’s critics, there is no evidence of racism when Obama appoints a black attorney general (who everyone thinks is eminently qualified for the position).
As an Asian immigrant, I encounter this question a lot. Immigrant parents ask why their hard working children have to compete in a pool of other hard working Asian children while blacks seem to compete only among blacks for spots in ivy league schools. In some sense, this is somewhat understandable because they only arrived in thsi country. there is no reason why they should have a sense of how bad racism and segregation was.
Usually they come to understand why we as a nation must try to undo some of the effects of what we did to the black and indian communities.
Then they ask what about the hispanics? Why do they get preference over our children, are they subject to that much more discrimination than we are? Why do whites have an easier time getting into ivy leagues than our children? What discrimination have they suffered? I don’t have much of an answer for this.
I’m not sure how or if your story relates to the first staement I responded to. If it does you’re have to explain how.
I don’t assume everyone who sees a need to deal with race issues means “white people need to keep apologizing” and I thin k that’s incorrect.
Is there a point? I’ve been part of a sidewalk chicken game. I’ve seen black customers create drama and suspected it was a ruse to get something. So what?
First we should try to see people as people. With basic respect and consideration they are a person first and then we fill in the details. Are they polite, smart, funny, generous , selfish, whatever? Part of those details will be their race and how thier experiences have shaped them. Part of it is how that part of us views them. Having a frank conversation about race is acknowledging and dealing with the details when the details are creating a problem and damaging division.
So, what does your story have to do about race? IMO the guy was a punk playing some stupid punk game. Punks come in all races and his isn’t a significant part of the story. I don’t connect the actions directly with race, do you?
Sure. I think the goal is to remind people to be decent people to other people, regardless of culture or skin color. That isn’t going to happen overnight or because of a bumpersticker. Maybe a frank conversation will get people thinking about it and to see their own racial issues. It’s easy to be magnanimous toward minorities when you’re feeling in control. Suddenly it looks as if the minorities may have much more say in how things go and people start having to deal with feelings they didn’t have to deal with before.
I don’t know. I interpret residual as minor and blatant as more harsh.
Is part of decent behaviour accepting using racial fears as a legitimate poltical tactic?
But to then make it a *Frank *analogy, let’s have the neighbor be hostile to my 7 year old white son. My son who has raped nobody, punched nobody (OK - his older brother), and taken nothing. ALL he now knows is that this neighbor seems to be a bit hostile. We seem to jump to groups when it comes to this discussion, and completely forget individuals.