That’s pretty close to it. But slightly more nuanced.
To the extent that there are ligitimate differing views about racial issues, there’s no reason to assume that a “frank discussion on race” will produce anything worthwhile. To the contrary, it will just get everyone even more worked up about their respective positions than they are already.
But the implicit assumption of the FDOR people is that some sort of truth is being hidden that, if confronted, can be dealt with. Calls for a FDOR are a way of subtly dismissing those who downplay the significance of (white-on-black) racial discrimination, as being some sort of cover-up. It’s “you guys just don’t want to admit all the terrible things white people are doing, and that’s why we have all these problems”.
OK, so as a thought experiment, would you be comfortable telling jewish people to “just move on” because the holocaust was way over in Germany and over 50 years ago? So, it really shouldn’t affect their outlook at all, right?
(Yes, I know, I stepped in a big pile of Godwin…)
You really do seem to suffer from the affliction that history doesn’t matter. Well, good for you. It would be valuable for you to acknowledge and internalize that it does matter to others.
and your comments about clothes.
IMO it’s {pardon my bluntness} ridiculous.
Racism is about much more basic “different treatment” than how clothes, make up and hair style. There’s no connection I can see between concepts of human rights equality and superficail choices of self expression.
Well, I guess this will teach me what happens when I agree with Shodan!
But, to continue digging my hole:
I don’t understand this. Why can such comparisons not be made? It impresses me as somewhat suspect to say a group cannot be compared to any others, simply because they are unique. If you are going to adopt that position, you ought to flesh it out a bit.
In order:
-(stranger) not based on color alone. Would depend much moreso on setting, number of strangers, and other aspects of their appearance than simply their color. I would feel more uneasy approached by a group of caucasian teenage punks, than a group of black businessmen.
-(attractive) at the risk of generalizing and using imperfect language, I would suggest that I tend to be most attracted to whites. I certainly find someone like Halle Berry as attractive as any woman alive, but I acknowledge her features are not what is/was commonly considered typically “negroid”. There are many blacks, asians and whites I find attractive, and many I find unattractive.
-(neighborhood) doubtful. I am not aware of any majority black neighborhoods that offer everything I desire in a neighborhood. I am aware of one pretty mixed neighborhood which could easily imagine living in. I am far mor interested in amenities, location, and how property is maintained, than the skin color, religion, or sexual preference of my neighbors.
-(college) doubtful. Well, maybe if they gave me a full ride. Or if they offered a clearly better education in some field of study in a better location and for a better price than I could obtain elsewhere. But I tend to be a strong supporter of public education schools and am happy with the state school I attended. I admit I do not know all “historically black” collegs. Perhaps there are some I would go to.
-(acquaintances) yes, I know people who are racist. But with one exception, I tend to have very little to do with people whom I know are racist. It has been my experience that just about any flavor of bigot is able to find a community within which they are relatively safe and comfortable. I assume you mean more material “consequences” than a lack of enjoyment of diversity’s riches…
It undoubtedly will not surprise you to hear that I am not consistently sympathetic to every cry of “antisemitism” I hear. I think at least some (definitely far from all) jewish individuals/organizations derive some benefit from overly broad accusations of antisemitism, the same way I think some blacks excessively attribute their problems to racism.
But aren’t you kind of confusing things here? Do today’s jews occupy a disadvantaged position comparable to blacks? The holocaust was a tad larger in scope than Tulsa, Rosewood, and Elaine. So oughtn’t they occupy a lower rung on the social ladder than blacks? Or are we back to the “specialness” of the black experience. Slavery trumps attempted extermination?
I don’t know that I can accomplish anything here other than make myself look bad,so I’ll step away for a while. But I never denied that racism is very prevalent and real and ongoing. Whether clearly or not, I merely intended to express my opinion that racism was not the sole cause for today’s African Americans’ relatively disadvantaged position. And even assuming tremendous institutional and personal racism, I do not understand why African Americans are unable to emulate other cultures in establishing their own institutions. I don’t think anyone has offered an explanation for that as yet.
I live in NW Indiana, home of corn fields and Gary, Indiana. Lots of black/white issues around here. I grew up in Merrillville, which is the town directly south of Gary. My parents and grandparents lived in Gary when they were younger, and every one of them had seen their hometown go from nice, regular small city to one of the worst urban hell holes in America. The only difference they could see was the influx of blacks in the 1970s to work at the steel mills. They were/are all racist.
We were raised by my mom to not be racist. She tried very hard to fight the community racism, and did a good job.
Now, I am in my thirties, and I have seen my hometown, Merrillville, go from a nice small suburban town to an almost hell hole, as the Gary residents have moved south. And it’s now at least 70% black. I also can learn about and analyze issues of social class, economic turmoil, racism, etc., and see the impact these things have had on the Gary blacks. But, I can almost learn about and analyze issues of single parents, teenage pregnancy, worship of rap stars and sports stars as role models, using and selling drugs, and just not plain going to work.
I don’t think that blacks as a race are less smart, but I sometimes think their brains would work better if they would get their heads out of their ass. The impact of very poor decisions are always apparent in any race - I’ve seen white trash whose actions far outweigh those of Gary residents. But I don’t see it as being as widespread in any other race culture than in American blacks. And it’s not skin color, since African and other dark-skinned immigrants do not have this problem.
This has come to the fore lately, because this summer, my new town, in the southern part of the county, has been “plagued” by a small group of black men who walk around town, and live in a rental building nearby. Now, there have been no reports of increased crime or baby eating, but these guys are the talk of the town.
The real reason they are talked about is not their skin color. It is because of their dress - baggy jeans, white tank tops, dread locks and sideways ball caps. They look like “Gary blacks”. And these guys will be viewed with suspicion because so many people in this town left the north part of the county to get away from guys like them, who broke into houses and sold crack. They could be spending their days volunteering at the hospital and petting kittens, but that doesn’t matter because they’ve identified with “the enemy”
So, therein lies the rub: They look like inner-city crack-dealers. But whites shouldn’t judge them based on their clothes and color, since that’s racism. However, the blacks have taught the whites to view them that way, by destroying their towns and acting like criminals.
I’m confused. Are we supposed to be having a frank discussion about race in this thread, or are we supposed to be having a frank discussion about what it means to have a frank discussion about race?
1919 was a great year for race riots. Chicago experienced one of these worse that left about 30 people dead over the course of nearly two weeks. I don’t think the conditions were exactly the same as they were in much of the south but there were problems nation wide.
This is interesting. So basically you’re saying the influx of blacks and their attitudes about their own neighborhood turned a decent neighborhood into a hell hole?
Would you say the income level went up down or stayed the same, relative to cost of living? Has the crime rate gone up?
How do you see this affecting black white relations?
I ask because this is one of the memes that I’ve heard and have no real experience to judge from.
