Seriously, I’m getting fed up to about {pretend you see me holding my right hand above my head as high as I can} here with ignorant comments (heard and read a few recently) about Islam and the Qur’an. So here’s a thought. Let’s read the thing and discuss it here.
Notice that I said “read the thing” and then I said “and discuss it here.” I did not say “Let’s bash it without reading it” nor did I say “Let’s pretend I read it and toss out the usual quotes proving how evil it is.”
The idea is to actually read the thing. If you’ve read it before, cool–Here’s a chance to read it again. If you’ve never read it before now, cool–Here’s a chance to read it and find out what’s going on inside the text, so to speak. Some of the suras are quite long and some are quite short. My plan is to discuss them in order and, for the shorter ones, discuss them in convenient groups as we get to them.
I’m not much for any religious book because I don’t believe it at its very essence (the existence of a god). However, I’m all for honest understanding of what it actually says. Is there an on-line version of it? I’ll play along for a bit for purposes of dispelling or reinforcing assumptions that are glurged to me daily in my email.
Okay…this is already making my brain hurt. Can we agree on one interpretation to read? The Shakir version seems to be a bit more accessible, style-wise.
The OP begins with a good idea, but the basic premise has a fault:
The important thing is not what a book says;–the important thing is how that book is actually used.
Take 2 examples( one from religion, one from politics):
The Bible says a lot of things, like how to kill idol worshippers and how to love your neighbor. A Martian landing on earth would be pretty confused. So what is important to explain to the Martian is not what is written in the bible, but rather the social/historical effects on society caused by people who read the Bible.
The US Constitution guarrantees freedom and equality to all. So a Martian landing on earth would easily believe that the USA was from the beginning always a perfectly free country, with no history of lynching its own citizens.
When reading any text , it is just as important to know the social/historical context that the text is used in, as it is to read the actual words of the book.
The meaning of the words changes as the society which uses those words changes.
But fighting ignorance has to start somewhere, so let’s give it a try.
Agreed. But see, that’s my problem with religion to begin with. There are so many interpretations of their documents that it muddies the waters. Since I can’t understand the Qur’an as written, I have to choose an interpretation. I’m not sure the one I’m choosing is even the one that most people choose.
Funny you should bring this up, I bought one from Borders a fortnight ago for £3.99, as I figured it’s going to be an increasingly important book.
I haven’t got very far, as to be honest it’s bloody boring, but what I have found very amusing is that chapters seem to be grouped by subject matter and sorted (descending) by length, so there’s a very large chapter about women right at the beginning. And some of the stuff in it is hilarious. Don’t have the time to type it out now, but I assure you it’s even more sexist than the feminists say!
Edited to add: I’m up for this, but I am rather busy, so let’s keep our little book club running at a slow pace, please!
I think all religious texts should be taken literally. If it isn’t then you aren’t actually following it. For instance, I don’t believe the bible can say “kill idol worshippers” and that it can be interpreted any other way than, “If you see someone worshipping idols, kill him.” If you don’t see it that way, you’re cherry-picking. Squinting your eyes to overlook the less-than-loving scripture. And if you don’t see that as being in direct conflict with the term “love thy neighbor” you’re cherry-picking still. If the text is the word of god and you worship god’s word as words to live by, then you have to consider all of it; not just those parts that are appealing to you.
So, to follow with what the OP suggested, I say yes…for purposes of this thread, we need to take the words literally.
And this is exactly why I think this is a bad idea. You need to know the context in which the stories were written and what they meant to the audience. Without context, you foist your own (likely seriously incorrect) interpretations on words which most likely were never meant to be interpreted the way you insist on interpreting them.
In fact, in the history of story-telling, tales have usually meant to teach lessons and to be allegorical rather than to be considered fact. If the writers don’t intend for you to read something as 100% representation of truth, who are you to presume that you are entitled to put a different spin on it?
Unlike a book like Charlotte’s Web, you can’t read a book like the Quran without considering its impact on society. For a deep discussion on this topic, I urge you to read Sam Harris’ book, The End of Faith.
He argues, with evidence, that although both the Bible and The Quran are full of requirements for believers, and many of those requirements are violent and highly offensive to today’s society, mainstream Christianity/Judiasm has “matured” and moved beyond such nonsense, while mainstream Islam has not. Therein lies a fundamental conflict between civilizations.
In other words (Harris says), mainstream Islam takes the Quran all too literally, while only fringe fundies take the Bible word for word.
As Harris suggests, imagine the Christian Crusaders with nuclear weapons. Now realize that Islamic crusaders have the same mind-set as the crusaders did – kill the infidels and let God sort them out – but they now have nuclear weapons.
Of course you’re allowed to think what you want about what words mean, but the OP specifically said he wants to look at what the actual words say; not the many ways they’re interpreted. As an example, when the Qur’an uses the word “kill”, we would not say, "Gee…I really think he meant to say “love”. We’re looking to see what the words of this (mostly) foreign text actually are.
Not every item in the Quran or the Bible is in the context of story-telling and tales; many passages represent themselves to be recounting actual history, or else direct admonitions from God.
If the standard for what the Quran or the Bible teach is to use a literal reading, both are going to be full of pretty violent suggestions toward the non-Chosen and toward women, and a bunch of other odd stuff. The book of Joshua comes to mind for me as the most egregious Biblical example of incredible violence (slaughtering conquered babies in the name of Jehovah, e.g).
If the standard is to put either of the in “context” or “allegory” or some other interpretational massage, good luck trying to delineate on the SDMB what millions of antecedent adherents and critics have failed to agree on.
I agree with what you’re saying. I think it says a lot about the worth of a particular text. If you have to re-write it to suit current civilized ideology, then it, as a “life guide”, is currently worthless. If you continue to follow it word for word, then you’re living in the fringes and your views are largely out of step with the rest of society. That’s why I don’t take much stock in it, except with regard to the quirks of human behavior.
I generally agree with your point, that these types of religious texts are not always meant to be taken literally, and interpretation is part of understanding them. The problem with your point here is that what you are basically saying is that it is a bad idea to read the Qur’an if you aren’t part of the culture and don’t understand the various interpretations and context. I don’t think it can ever be a “bad idea” to read such an important document, so that you can at least have a background to understanding where the people in the particular culture are coming from. There’s no way you can understand any interpretation if you don’t actually read what the words say first.
Then Harris is an ass, since ‘mainstream Islam’ is not represented by the few hundred loons in Al-Qaeda but by the rest of the one BILLION Muslims on the planet.
This is just the problem I foresee; that people who are ignorant of what ‘mainstream’ Islam teaches will read the Q’ran and think they’re reading a manifesto for violence.
If you really want to learn about it, why not take a course on Islam from an actual Muslim? I did that quite a few years ago and was very interested to learn how many different interpretations of the Q’ran exist in Islam.
But we’re not talking about the many interpretations. We’re talking about what it actually says. They are two different things, for purposes of this discussion. We’re trying to familiarize ourselves with the document itself.
So you’re saying that we sophisticates of the 21st C with our infinitely superior science and understanding of the world are less able to comprehend allegory in its intended state than are the audiences for which it was originally written? Surely not!
