Let's Say I've Decided the Rapture Is Imminent. Now What Do I Do?

[Psycho_Pirate]

@SteveG1

Paul made a career out of converting both Jews and Gentiles (pagans). How on earth could he convert any of them, unless they did understand what he and his book were saying.

The same way anybody gets converted. Through the working of the Holy Spirit, convicting them of their sin, and by believing with faith on Jesus Christ to be saved. Paul could not have saved them without the conviction of the Holy Spirit working in those that were lost, leading them to salvation.

@SteveG1

Is the Word of God so flawed that only the “righteous” can get any meaning from it?

That is not my stance. On the contrary, I am one of those fundamentalists who believe the Bible to be verbally, plenary inspired, and thus inerrant. People can and should get meaning from the Bible. But until they are saved, most of the Bible and many of its doctrines are going to appear foolish to them.

1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

My emphasis added. In the early chapters of Corinthians Paul is expressing the importance placed on God’s wisdom, not the world’s or man’s wisdom. In Chapter 2, Paul speaks of knowledge and mystery being revealed not by man or himself, but by God’s Spirit.

@God through Paul

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:7-16)

In this section, Paul states that the princes of this world did not know the truth, else they would not have crucified Christ. This is so. He also drives home the main point that only the Spirit of God knows the things of God. However, the Spirit teaches us the Bible so that we can understand it. To try to comprehend the concepts of the Bible on our own is impossible if we are trying to do it by ourselves. But the Spirit of God will lead us into all truth. (John 16:12-14)

@SteveG1

Are you saying we should go back to the Dark Ages when only priests and nobles could read any book, let alone a Bible?

Not at all. Everybody should read the Bible. I am saying, however, that there are those who study the Bible purely academically. If these same people are not practicing Christians, or worse, professed atheists, then they are free to have their own opinion on the Bible and its doctrines. However, their opinion is worthless, because they can’t understand the Bible, because the Holy Spirit is not leading them. In fact, natural (that is, unsaved) man is so prejudiced against the things of God, that he does not accept them.

@SteveG1

I won’t mention how condescending it is to assume only fundies can understand something. Oops, just did. My bad.

I’m not saying that. I am saying that only saved people can have an understanding of the Bible, and then only through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry for the hijack, Siege

[SteveG1]

Don’t apologize. It’s not necessary.

[5que]

@prisoner6655321

Really? Seriously? In my 25 years of Christianity I don’t remember EVER knowing a fellow Christian who didn’t believe in the rapture as described in Revelations. I’ve found that it’s pretty common for a generic Christian to believe in it.

Maybe it’s a recent development? I was raised in the Church of Christ in the south in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Services three times a week – Sunday AM, Sunday PM, and Wednesday PM. We were never taught anything about the rapture.

[JMS_CCT]

[QUOTE=Psycho Pirate]
The same way anybody gets converted. Through the working of the Holy Spirit, convicting them of their sin, and by believing with faith on Jesus Christ to be saved. Paul could not have saved them without the conviction of the Holy Spirit working in those that were lost, leading them to salvation.

True, but it is the word that ultimately convicts, saves and renews. The Spirit works through the words. This begins with the gospel of your salvation: “The gospel of Christ, for *it is the power of God * unto salvation, to everyone that believeth… (Romans 1:16)…that Christ died for our sins…was buried…was raised again the third day…for our justification”.…and is followed by the invitation to confess Jesus as saviour: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Romans 4:25; 10:9)

These words are capable of penetrating the hardest of souls. They penetrated mine 18 years ago, and I didn’t know anyone more hard bitten and cynical than I.

[vanilla]

On a lighter note, Mike Warnke once joked that if the rapture was happening, he’d grab 2 sinners and say “Convert now or I’m letting go”

:rolleyes:

[MEBuckner]

@BobLibDem

Some sects believe in it, which is fine by me but I think the basis for this belief is a misreading of the Book of Revelation.

@prisoner6655321

In my 25 years of Christianity I don’t remember EVER knowing a fellow Christian who didn’t believe in the rapture as described in Revelations.

Actually the source of the doctrine of the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

[DanBlather]

Isn’t the antichrist supposed to arrive sometime before the rapture? I’d watch out for someone who tries to get the world to follow him by acting pious and talking about god a lot, and then acts contrary to Jesus’ teachings. Then I’d move to a blue state so they know where to get me when the rapture happens.

[vanilla]

The anti-christ will be known by making a peace accord with Israel. ;j

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@prisoner6655321

Really? Seriously? In my 25 years of Christianity I don’t remember EVER knowing a fellow Christian who didn’t believe in the rapture as described in Revelations. I’ve found that it’s pretty common for a generic Christian to believe in it. Otherwise your “unoccupied driver in case of rapture” bumper stickers wouldn’t sell too well. This might just be me and my huge group of Christians in Houston though. 'Course I don’t know all of them, but every time a Christian I have ever spoken with speaks of the end of the world or when Jesus returns, or the afterlife, the rapture is part of the discussion. And this happens quite frequently. And the question of it not happening never even comes up. It’s just assumed fact.

You need to get out more. Rapture theololgy is a minority view in Christianity. It never even existed before the 19th century. It has a largely regional and denomonational currency, though. How many of these other Christians you know are Catholics, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox or Anglicans?

I don’t know what part of Revelation you’re referring to but there’s no “Rapture” event described in that book or anywhere else in the Bible.

[DanBlather]

@Diogenes the Cynic

How many of these other Christians you know are Catholics, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox or Anglicans?

Dude, he is in HOUSTON!!

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@MEBuckner

Actually the source of the doctrine of the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The scriptural justification (and a misreading of the passage) yes, but the inspiration for the theology was rooted in the hallucinations of a mentally ill teenage girl in Scotland and the personal whacko theories of a preacher named Darby.

[FriarTed]

@5que

Maybe it’s a recent development? I was raised in the Church of Christ in the south in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Services three times a week – Sunday AM, Sunday PM, and Wednesday PM. We were never taught anything about the rapture.

Church of Christ is Amillenial. Jesus comes back at the End of the World. The Last Judgement happens. We all go into Eternity. No Rapture. No Seven-year Tribulation. No Thousand-Year Earthly Kingdom of God.

Not all Rapturists are fundamentalists & not all fundamentalists are Rapturists.

vanilla- that’s a good joke. I wish all Mike Warnke had done was tell jokes & preach good messages about trusting Jesus. (You do know about his lying about being an Ex-Satanist , don’t ya?) Also- the AntiChrist’s seven-year peace treaty
with Israel is based only on one verse- Daniel 9:27, which can also refer to Vespasian or Titus’s command of Roman troops to lay siege to Jerusalem. or as I & many Christians over the centuries have believed - a reference to Jesus making the New Covenant, being crucified & ending the need for sacrifices after 3 1/2 years of ministry, and the then after that 70th Week (seven years) are complete for Israel, the Gospel is given to the Gentiles by Peter in Acts 10.

Tho I will admit that the idea of the 70th week being the reign of AntiChrist does go back at least to Justin Martyr in the early second century AD.

However, the sign Jesus in Matthew 24 & Paul in 2 Thess. 2 give for the AntiChrist is his defiling the Temple & claiming Godhood.

Diogenes- that’s a bit unfair to Margaret MacDonald. She was recovering from a brain fever when she gave her “Rapture” utterance, but it’s actually a pretty coherent message. And before & after her fever, she had a reputation as being quite devout & mentally sound.

[glee]

@hlanelee

Jesus Christ, himself, was very specific: LOVE ONE AND OTHER…TREAT THE OTHER GUY LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED…that’s about it. He also mentioned not being judgemental.

Um, wasn’t it ‘Love one another’?

@prisoner6655321

In my 25 years of Christianity I don’t remember EVER knowing a fellow Christian who didn’t believe in the rapture as described in Revelations. I’ve found that it’s pretty common for a generic Christian to believe in it. Otherwise your “unoccupied driver in case of rapture” bumper stickers wouldn’t sell too well. This might just be me and my huge group of Christians in Houston though. 'Course I don’t know all of them, but every time a Christian I have ever spoken with speaks of the end of the world or when Jesus returns, or the afterlife, the rapture is part of the discussion. And this happens quite frequently. And the question of it not happening never even comes up. It’s just assumed fact.

Isn’t this a US Protestant belief?
I went to church for seven years here in England and it was never mentioned.

[JMS_CCT]

@vanilla

The anti-christ will be known by making a peace accord with Israel. ;j

Yes, and they will go for it (except for the tribulation saints) because he is one of them (a Jew by birth), and “shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries…with all power and signs and lying wonders.” (OT: Daniel 11:21-24, 32, 33, 37; NT: 2 Thess. 7-9; Rev. 6:9-11; 7: 4-17)(KJV)

Who is the “he” of 2 Thess. 2:7, who must be taken out of the way before anti-christ can be revealed?

[JMS_CCT]

@Diogenes the Cynic

You need to get out more. Rapture theololgy is a minority view in Christianity. It never even existed before the 19th century. It has a largely regional and denomonational currency, though. How many of these other Christians you know are Catholics, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox or Anglicans?

I don’t know what part of Revelation you’re referring to but there’s no “Rapture” event described in that book or anywhere else in the Bible.

As Werner Von Braun said: “Must we light a candle, so you can see the sun?”

Don’t through the baby out with the bath water just because you’re put off by the word “Rapture.”

It (this event you claim is non-existent in scripture) isn’t in any part of the Revelation, because it isn’t a part of the prophetic scriptures. The Revelation is simply the playing out of what has already been foretold by the prophets. The catching up of the body of Christ (1 Thess. 4:16,17) was a “mystery” (“Behold, I show you a mystery…” 1 Cor. 15:51), which was revealed exclusively in Paul’s epistles.

[Siege]

@DanBlather

Dude, he is in HOUSTON!!

They’ve got Anglicans in Houston. They’ve even got change-ringers, which is how I know about this particular church! Since change-ringers never have been the most reputable of Anglicans – I know; I used to be one – I suspect they’ve even got my kind of scruffy Epsicopalian.

More seriously, though, I think there might be something to the notion that belief in the rapture is somewhat tied to geography, although not completely. Just as PsychoPirate has never met a Christian in real life who doesn’t believe in the rapture, so I have never met one in real life who does, and a great many Christians I know hadn’t heard of it until LaHaye came out with his books.

I’m starting to wonder, too, if maybe we’re confusing the rapture as described by Darby, LaHaye, Hal Lindsay, et al with the second coming of Jesus Christ. The latter is part of Episcopal church doctrine, and something I’ll be affirming my belief in in a few hours as we recite the Nicene Creed: “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.”

I’ve also been told by that former Fundamentalist friend of mine that among those who believe in the rapture (he used to be one), there are actually three schools of thought: one believes the rapture will happen before the tribulations, also known as Pre-Trib; ones who believe the rapture will happen during the tribulations, the Mid-Trib ones; and ones who believe the rapture will happen only after the tribulations are over, the Post-Trib ones. I’m told fighting among these groups can get very nasty but, given the strength of the anger rapture theology inspires in me, I haven’t looked in on the arguments.

Technically, my question has been answered, and I suspect we’ll be having discussions about the rapture for as long as this board lasts and/or until Christ does get around to turning up again. It’s up to the rest of you whether you want this one to continue.

CJ

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@JMS@CCT

Yes, and they will go for it (except for the tribulation saints) because he is one of them (a Jew by birth), and “shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries…with all power and signs and lying wonders.” (OT: Daniel 11:21-24, 32, 33, 37; NT: 2 Thess. 7-9; Rev. 6:9-11; 7: 4-17)(KJV)

Who is the “he” of 2 Thess. 2:7, who must be taken out of the way before anti-christ can be revealed?

Interesting that not one of the books you cite (including Revelation) says anything about an “Antichrist.” Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

As Werner Von Braun said: “Must we light a candle, so you can see the sun?”

Don’t through the baby out with the bath water just because you’re put off by the word “Rapture.”

I’m not put off by the word, I’m just trying to dispel some ignorance here. Rapture theology is rooted in ignorance of real Biblical study.

It (this event you claim is non-existent in scripture) isn’t in any part of the Revelation, because it isn’t a part of the prophetic scriptures. The Revelation is simply the playing out of what has already been foretold by the prophets. The catching up of the body of Christ (1 Thess. 4:16,17) was a “mystery” (“Behold, I show you a mystery…” 1 Cor. 15:51), which was revealed exclusively in Paul’s epistles.

It’s not part of any other scripture either. Thessalonians is only talking about the Second Coming, which is hardly a revelation or a mystery.
Incidentally, when all those Rapture believing Christians go up in the air, where are they going? Is Heaven in the sky? Is it in outer space? What’s the point of going up?

In the 21st century, isn’t it about time we let go of our quaint notions about a thre layered universe with Heaven in the sky? Do you also think that Hell is “down there” under the ground somewhere?

[JMS_CCT]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Interesting that not one of the books you cite (including Revelation) says anything about an “Antichrist.” Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

I’m not put off by the word, I’m just trying to dispel some ignorance here. Rapture theology is rooted in ignorance of real Biblical study.

It’s not part of any other scripture either. Thessalonians is only talking about the Second Coming, which is hardly a revelation or a mystery.
Incidentally, when all those Rapture believing Christians go up in the air, where are they going? Is Heaven in the sky? Is it in outer space? What’s the point of going up?

In the 21st century, isn’t it about time we let go of our quaint notions about a thre layered universe with Heaven in the sky? Do you also think that Hell is “down there” under the ground somewhere?

I’m not answering this for your sake, because it’s obvious to me that no amount of scriptural documentation is going to convince you–your mind is made up. I’m answering it for the edification of those who haven’t yet made up their minds.

“Antichrist” is a NT word found in the first two of John’s epistles, but is obviously refering to the “vile person” of Daniel 11.

Concerning Heaven’s location: notice that at the end of verse 17 and the whole of verse 18 of 1 Thess. 4, after the body of Christ is taken up, it says, **“so shall we ever be with the Lord, wherefore comfort one another with these words.” ** If we’re going to be with the Lord, who cares where that is." But since you asked, check out 1 Timoth 6, last part of verse 14, 15,16.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@JMS@CCT

I’m not answering this for your sake, because it’s obvious to me that no amount of scriptural documentation is going to convince you–your mind is made up. I’m answering it for the edification of those who haven’t yet made up their minds.

You haven’t provided any scriptural evidence for the Rapture, all you’ve done is cite verses out of context which I have to keep explaining.

“Antichrist” is a NT word found in the first two of John’s epistles, but is obviously refering to the “vile person” of Daniel 11.

The “contemptable person” in Daniel 11 is the Seleucid king, Antiochos. The word “Antichrists” in the Epistles of John are a generic designation for apostate Christians and enmies of Christianity in general. The term has nothing to do with anything in Daniel, or in Revelation (the “Beast” is not the “Antichrist”) or with any concept at all of a futuristic super villain who’s going to take over the world.

Concerning Heaven’s location: notice that at the end of verse 17 and the whole of verse 18 of 1 Thess. 4, after the body of Christ is taken up, it says, **“so shall we ever be with the Lord, wherefore comfort one another with these words.” ** If we’re going to be with the Lord, who cares where that is." But since you asked, check out 1 Timoth 6, last part of verse 14, 15,16.

Ah, yes, the Lord dwells in “unapproachable light.” Well that sure settles that…not. Is the “unapproachable light” up in the sky then? Outer space? Why are people going into the sky? That’s my question.

[vanilla]

@Diogenes the Cynic

I’m not put off by the word, I’m just trying to dispel some ignorance here. Rapture theology is rooted in ignorance of real Biblical study.

Do you also think that Hell is “down there” under the ground somewhere?

1.None of the wicked shall understand but the wise will understand-Bible.
If you aren’t a believer, none of it will make sense, no matter what.

2.Hmmm, hell.Well, its said to be a bottomless pit. If you are in the (hot) core of the earth, there is no bottom, every way is up…