Let's talk about Hell

[Captain_Amazing]

@BrainGlutton

The Apocalypse of Peter – non-canonical, but probably dating from the same period as the canonical NT books – reads like an early draft of Dante’s Inferno, with grisly and exultant descriptions of the torments of the damned.

It’s not eternal, though. In the Apocalypse of Peter, the sinful are tortured in the afterlife for their sins, but eventually, because of divine mercy and the pleas of the righteous, the sinners will be forgiven and taken into heaven.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Captain_Amazing

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

That’s the Nicene Creed. The Apostles’ Creed is 8th century.

Are you sure? I thought it predated Nicea, which is why you don’t see any specific anti-Arian stuff in it. Didn’t Augustine write about it? “De symbolo ad catechumenos”? I don’t know if it has the "He descended to Hades"in Augustine’s creed, so it’s possible that was added in the 8th century.

I just found the sermon. Augustine takes each line separately and discourses on it. Here’s Augustine’s version, in a translation I found:

I believe in God the Father Almighty
His Only Son, our Lord.
Born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
was crucified, dead, and buried
He ascended into heaven
He sitteth at the right hand of the Father
Thence He shall come to judge the quick and dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Church.
Forgiveness of sins.
the resurrection of the flesh into life everlasting

So, no Hades, but that’s still recognizable as the Apostle’s Creed, more or less.

Yes, it’s a formative version, but not the finished product:

While the individual statements of belief that are included in the Apostles’ Creed – even those not found in the Old Roman Symbol – are found in various writings by Irenaeus, Tertullian, Novatian, Marcellus, Rufinus, Ambrose, Augustine, Nicetus, and Eusebius Gallus,[9] the earliest appearance of what we know as the Apostles’ Creed was in the De singulis libris canonicis scarapsus (“Excerpt from Individual Canonical Books”) of St. Priminius (Migne, Patrologia Latina 89, 1029 ff.), written between 710 and 714.

Apostles' Creed

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@BrainGlutton

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Yes, our concept of Hell arose in the early medieval period and really got a boost from Milton and Dante.

See post #22. Also, I’ve read (in L. Sprague de Camp’s Spirits, Stars & Spells: The Profits and Perils of Magic, of all places) some Christian writings from just before the Roman Empire turned Christian, full of gleeful visions of the torments that await the pagans.

It wasn’t yet eternal, thoughm as Captain Amazing has pointed out.

And while I can’t find a cite right now, I believe St. Augustine wrote that the joy of the saints is made all the sweeter because they can watch the damned suffering in Hell.

That was Aquinas, and Augustine is early medieval anyway (he was 5th Century, The medieval period, as I understand it, is measured from the 5th through the 15th Centuries).

[Captain_Amazing]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

(he was 5th Century, The medieval period, as I understand it, is measured from the 5th through the 15th Centuries).

Traditionally, the middle ages “starts” with the fall of the Western Roman Empire, which postdates Augustine, who died in 430 during the Vandal siege of Hippo. Traditionally, the western philosopher/theologian who marks the end of the classical age and beginning of the middle ages is Boethius. I personally wouldn’t consider Augustine medieval, but that’s just me.

[carnivorousplant]

@Captain_Amazing

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

(he was 5th Century, The medieval period, as I understand it, is measured from the 5th through the 15th Centuries).

Traditionally, the middle ages “starts” with the fall of the Western Roman Empire,

In the 5th century when some German guy put his son on the throne of the Roman Empire as I recall.

[BrainGlutton]

@carnivorousplant

@Captain_Amazing

Traditionally, the middle ages “starts” with the fall of the Western Roman Empire,

In the 5th century when some German guy put his son on the throne of the Roman Empire as I recall.

No, the last emperor was a Roman.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Captain_Amazing

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

(he was 5th Century, The medieval period, as I understand it, is measured from the 5th through the 15th Centuries).

Traditionally, the middle ages “starts” with the fall of the Western Roman Empire, which postdates Augustine, who died in 430 during the Vandal siege of Hippo. Traditionally, the western philosopher/theologian who marks the end of the classical age and beginning of the middle ages is Boethius. I personally wouldn’t consider Augustine medieval, but that’s just me.

Ok. I’ll call him a pubic hair before the Medieval period then.

[carnivorousplant]

Perhaps Odacer was the guy I had in mind.
476 sounds like what Dr. Bollus taught us. I had to remember that date for the final.

[DocCathode]

@BrainGlutton

No, the last emperor was a Roman.

Not according to this he wasn’t.

[Captain_Amazing]

@BrainGlutton

No, the last emperor was a Roman.

For certain values of Roman, at least. He was basically his father’s puppet, and his father was a German, albeit a Roman citizen.

[Nzinga_Seated]

Diogenes, a long time ago, you mentioned you might do a thread like this, and I have been waiting. I appreciate it greatly.

Would it be fair to say that a burning, eternal hell is indeed a Christian concept, if not a biblical one? I think even the Catholic Pope has endorsed hell as a real and eternal place of torture for sinners.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

For the most part, yes, but not universally. There are denominations (such as Jehovah’s Witnesses) who are annihilationists. Some denominations have other buffers and qualifiers too, like the Catholic idea of purgatory.

[FriarTed]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

For the most part, yes, but not universally. There are denominations (such as Jehovah’s Witnesses) who are annihilationists. Some denominations have other buffers and qualifiers too, like the Catholic idea of purgatory.

Just to fill this out a bit- The larger annihilationist denominations also include the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Bible Students (proto-JWs who follow the teachings of Charles Taze Russell but not Judge Rutherford) and the various Armstrongist Churches of God (the original Worldwide COG now holds it as an open question). The first Pentecostal group- the now tiny Apostolic Faith Mission founded by Charles Fox Parham- was also annihilationist. Btw- with some minimal differences, Annihilationism is pretty much the same as Conditional Immortality.

I’ll get more involved in this later.

[BrainGlutton]

You want the Straight Dope on Hell? Here it is: From Revelation X: The “Bob” Apocryphon, Chapter 8: “Heaven and Hell”:

Everything written regarding Hell in all bibles, from the Zoroastrian up through Dante to Chick Comics, is literally true (except the name of the author). The traditional Hell exists, complete with Lake of Fire, demons, and eternal torment; they aren’t lying about that. What they don’t tell you is that only religious people go there.

It’s a rare SubGenius that ends up in this Normal Hell, the lowest rung of the Ladder of Beforelives. THE HELL CLAUSE states that Hell is reserved for those who believe in it, and the lowest Circle is for those who think that if they don’t believe in it, they’ll go there. Hell is JHVH-1’s revenge on those who insult His intelligence by thinking He is as simple-minded, cruel and vengeful as THEY are. The Devil’s job is to pester them, to milk out every last drop of human faith and credence. Satan manages Hell, and it’s a very busy place these days, but his responsibilities regarding earthly life cover only religious nuts. JHVH-1 assigned him to create some kind of secondary Hell on earth, so Satan devised the idea of multiple religions, all believing in his existence but hating each other even more than they hate him. (In the end it doesn’t really matter whether those Normals are “good” or “bad” in life; Satan and JHVH-1 divvy up the souls 50-50, at random.)

<snip>

Pink Heaven (frequently misidentified as Christian Heaven or Islamic Paradise) is nothing but a more sophisticated Hell, with air conditioning. In many ways, it is far worse. At least in Hell, you know where you stand. The sheep in Heaven can’t even guess how utterly doomed they truly are.

“Heaven” is only the second rung up the Beforelife ladder, and, like Hell, is reserved for believers. It consists of an absence not only of pain, but also of pleasure.

Great deal, huh? You’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. Disobedient souls burn in Hell forever, but obedient souls “belong to God.” As if making you an employee all your LIFE wasn’t bad enough, you’re enslaved in the AFTERLIFE as well! You get all the joy of a fundamentalist’s lifestyle, with no hope of release – not even death!

<snip>

In “Heaven” there dwell certain hungry, rapacious predator spirits, called Theocrats, which vampirize the PPQF of weaker spirits in order to “live” forever at the expense of their victims.

"The Theocrats enslave other spirits to provide psychic energy, just as slaves or employees on Earth provide physical labor . . . They obtain these victims by posing as gods and persuading the religious believers to come to them voluntarily after death thinking they are entering “eternal bliss in Heaven.”

"Many notorious tyrants, conquerors, evil religious leaders, black magicians and criminals have become Theocrats after death, but so have some saints and benign geniuses. Power corrupts and the prospect of achieving immortality corrupts even more. Many people with highly developed souls, whose earthly lives were lived quite ethically, chose to become Theocrats after death . . . This has been especially true for people who were religiously devout, then found out the horrible truth about the gods after death.

"The daily activities of a Fundamentalist Theocratic band organized as Heaven are similar to a church service as such sects hold them on Earth, except that they go on perpetually. The Theocrat in charge poses as the Lord God Jehovah, and subordinate Theocrats pose as Christ, various Angels and Apostles, and so forth. “God” quotes the same Biblical passages and preaches the same sermons as preachers in the same sect do on Earth, and the congregation joins in singing the same hymns. . . . The Theocratic leaders then channel this collective psychic energy . . . For instance, there are dead Christians who think they are in Heaven, sitting around the throne of Jehovah “eternally singing his praises,” when they’re really just his slaves and possibly his dinner as well. Now you understand the real significance of “Holy Communion.”

". . . As fanatical belief in organized religion declines in the modern era, the Theocrats have even devised ways to persuade atheists and agnostics to join Theocratic bands after death. The most common is simply to invite them to join what appears to be a community of spirits that includes some of their previously-deceased relatives or friends, or some famous person they greatly admire . . . There are also “Heavens” whose “gods” claim to be politicians, movie stars, writers, scientists, rock stars, or even fictional characters."

– excerpted from Kyle Griffith’s War in Heaven.

The most insidiously cruel aspect of Pink Heaven/Normal Hell is that it’s all self-inflicted punishment. Nothing happens to those souls that they didn’t ask for, that wasn’t self-devised down to the smallest detail. And nastiest of all, just as their store of anguish is about to be used up, they are TOLD they could escape if only they would stop believing – BUT THAT ONLY MAKES IT WORSE. For, there they are, right in the thick of it, with flames searing their skin, or etheric vampires slowly devouring their very essence . . . so it’s just a bit difficult NOT to believe in it.

But there is hope! Now you can save your soul from Heaven! Just send it with $30 for shipping & handling costs to:

The Church of the SubGenius
c/o Reverend Ivan Stang
P.O. Box 181417
Cleveland Heights, OH 44118-1417

Eternal salvation guaranteed – OR TRIPLE YOUR MONEY BACK!

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Rev Ivan Stang knows Hell very well…he lives in Cleveland!

[Skammer]

I’ve read Dio’s posts, but only skimmed the rest of the thread.

Dio’s thesis, while seemingly in conflict with common (mis-)conceptions of hell, is actually a fairly widely accepted (but not universal) understanding in Christian theology. It’s more or less the one I ascribe to, as did a former priest of mine and my college professors. It’s a good analysis of the Biblical texts.

I’d like to see a similar analysis of the concept of “Heaven” – which, taken seriously, is not to be understood as somehow the “opposite” of Hell. N.T. Wright had an excellent book about Heaven a few years ago.

[FriarTed]

Because this thread needs a theme song~ Whoops, looks like something went wrong

(YouTube didn’t have the actual video!)

[BrainGlutton]

@Skammer

I’d like to see a similar analysis of the concept of “Heaven” – which, taken seriously, is not to be understood as somehow the “opposite” of Hell. N.T. Wright had an excellent book about Heaven a few years ago.

The difference between Hell and Heaven is which end of the pitchfork you’re on.

[Sampiro]

I don’t have the book handy, but I believe it was in one of Karen Armstrong’s works that she discussed the role of Hell in Islam. It has two major differences from Christianity:

1- It is not the abode of Satan and his minions but rather a place so fearsome they avoid it (though in the prophecies they will be driven there at the Final Judgment)
2- It is (as with other versions discussed in here) temporary, at least for most- a place to be purged of sin before you can enter Paradise

Any idea what the major influences were on this part of Islam?

[FriarTed]

@Sampiro

I don’t have the book handy, but I believe it was in one of Karen Armstrong’s works that she discussed the role of Hell in Islam. It has two major differences from Christianity:

1- It is not the abode of Satan and his minions but rather a place so fearsome they avoid it (though in the prophecies they will be driven there at the Final Judgment)
2- It is (as with other versions discussed in here) temporary, at least for most- a place to be purged of sin before you can enter Paradise

Any idea what the major influences were on this part of Islam?

1- That’s also actually the Biblical concept- at least of Gehenna. There may be some Biblical view for Sheol-Hades being a realm for the demonic- or not. I Peter does say that at least some fallen angels are bound in Tartarus.

2- Some Muslims/versions of Islam may regard Gehenna as temporary but I don’t think that’s the common view.