Let's talk about Hell

  1. FWIW, I first heard this theory about a non-eternal hell from someone who attended Fundi services as a kid. So this isn’t just some liberal after the fact patching.

  2. The Tartarus reference appears to be from 2 Peter 2:4 , not 1 Peter.

I see that Tartarus is for angels, and it appears to be a holding tank of sorts. 2 Peter 2 NIV - False Teachers and Their Destruction - Bible Gateway

  1. I’ll be taking a vacation from posting for a while…

The Apocalypse of Peter – non-canonical, but probably dating from the same period as the canonical NT books – reads like an early draft of Dante’s Inferno, with grisly and exultant descriptions of the torments of the damned.

By “Bible” I mean the Canonical Old and New Testaments, but we can add in the Apocrypha, which also uses heol or Hades.

Yes, our concept of Hell arose in the early medieval period and really got a boost from Milton and Dante.

The Apostles’ Creed is medieval and not in the Bible, but it doesn’t say “Hell” anyway. The original Latin text says descendit ad inferna (“he descended into the inferno”). Inferno in Latin meant “lower regions,.” i.e. a more generic underworld than hell, or, as with Sheol, metaphorically death or the grave.

Addressed and linked to above. That was happening in the divided Sheol.

Ah. Catholic High School. :slight_smile:

That’s from the dancing bones in Ezekiel, and the bones dance because they will be taken to Israel.
I thought Jews were opposed to cremation because of the Holocaust.

Cite: A brief perusal of Telushkin, Joseph, “Jewish Literacy”.

Is that from the Sarah Palin translation? :slight_smile:

Carniverous:

If you read the wikipedia version of the Catholic stance on hell, that’s pretty much it. In a nutshell, cut off from God, but no fire and brimstone. Punishment is being denied God’s love.

Being Jewish, I probably won’t. :slight_smile:

Most of us believe that we just die, we don’t “go” anywhere. Again, see Telushkin.

Nope page 361 of that book “In addition, cremation is forbidden by Jewish Law”.

That is Neturei Karta. I have the 2001 edition. Is your reference in the index?

I think I have the 1991 edition. I looked up “cremation” in the index and got a page on the death camps. Cremation being forbidden by Jewish law is mentioned in parenthesis.

I thought the Apostles’ Creed was 3rd or 4th century, not medieval.

P. 391 here. “In addition, cremation is forbidden by Jewish law”
In context, I’d say that supports your side; it was already forbidden before the Holocaust.

What about the lake of fire?

Good question. The Book of Revelation mentions a “lake of fire.”

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone
(Rev. 19:20)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 20:12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 20:14And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 20:15And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev. 20:15)

First of all, it should probably be pointed out that Revelation is highly allegorical and symnolic anyway. Nobody thinks that an actual multi-headed beast is going to literally rise out of the sea with a whore on its back, for instance (or maybe someone does. Nothing would shock me when it comes to Biblical interpretations), so this passage should be remebered as allegorical too.

Even taking it literally, though, we see that only three entities (the Devil, the Beast and the false Prophet) are said to be in for the old aionion hot foot. Everybody else, along with death and hades are cast into the fire for “the second death,” and even the lake of fire itself will included in that death.

Ultimately, it’s just more annihilation.

That’s the Nicene Creed. The Apostles’ Creed is 8th century.

I generally agree with most of your presentation, but I don’t think that your it was a real place and that’s all they meant stands very strongly. Both The Assumption of Moses and 2 Esdras use the word gehenna in a way that is much more like the modern Hell than the Jerusalem garbage dump. This is not to say that the concept of eternal fiery punishment was understood by the word, but a claim that it was “only” the valley to the south of Jerusalem is not supported by the evidence.

See post #22. Also, I’ve read (in L. Sprague de Camp’s Spirits, Stars & Spells: The Profits and Perils of Magic, of all places) some Christian writings from just before the Roman Empire turned Christian, full of gleeful visions of the torments that await the pagans. And while I can’t find a cite right now, I believe St. Augustine wrote that the joy of the saints is made all the sweeter because they can watch the damned suffering in Hell.

Jesus.

Sorry.

Oye!

:slight_smile:

Are you sure? I thought it predated Nicea, which is why you don’t see any specific anti-Arian stuff in it. Didn’t Augustine write about it? “De symbolo ad catechumenos”? I don’t know if it has the "He descended to Hades"in Augustine’s creed, so it’s possible that was added in the 8th century.

I just found the sermon. Augustine takes each line separately and discourses on it. Here’s Augustine’s version, in a translation I found:

So, no Hades, but that’s still recognizable as the Apostle’s Creed, more or less.