While certain church leaders and scholars argued against accepting Revelation, it was considered scripture by much of the church quite early on and it had been accepted by the Council of Rome (381) before Augustine was converted (387). In addition, it is difficult to see how the early church, with all the other symbolic, apocalyptic books in circulation, would have seen that one book as “literal.” The notion of the Revelation of John as being in any way a literal work was much more of a late Renaissance, (and even more, a 19th century), theme.
:dubious:
I seem to remember that it was accepted as a valid one, but not fully accepted by the church at Rome (orthodox church) until the fourth century. By the Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397). it was still being discussed if it had authority, by then it was affirmed as cannon.
Lists do mention the book early, but other lists after/during 380 and before Augustine omit it.
I’m not sure why your list omits the decalration at the Council of Rome.
At any rate, it was the Eastern Church, (Orthodox after the Schism), that tended to reject it while the Western Church, (Catholic after the Schism) tended to accept it quite early on.
The Apostles’ Creed descends from an earlier creed, the earliest surviving version of which we have comes from Tertullian. It’s dated to the second century at latest, and possibly the first century. That earliest version contains most of the material from the first two paragraphs of the Apostles’ Creed, but only one clause (“the resurrection of the body”) from the third paragraph.
In the third and forth centuries, we find many references to creeds, and a references to “Symbolum Apostolorum” (“Creed of the Apostles”) is a letter to Pope Siricius from the year 390. We don’t have an exact copy of the creed being used at that time, but there’s evidence that it was substantially the same as our modern Apostles’ Crred, with only minor changes in wording thereafter. Lots more discussion here if you want the gory details.
Here you go. And, yes, it’s from Aquinus, in his Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV. “In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned.”
Revelations is contrary to what Jesus has been quoted as saying He would return in His fathers glory with His angels while some of them standing there were still alive, He didn’t, He was also quoted as saying, that generation would not pass away until all those things were accomplished, I know some decided that; that generation didn’t mean the same as we do now, but Matthew, who also stated that there were 14 generations between David and Jesus. Some theologians say a generation is 100 years. What Jesus is quoted as stating didn’t happen in the first 100 years.
Revalations could just be the ramblings of a troubled old man, there is no way of knowing.
What would be the purpose of eternal suffering? It’s clearly not corrective. And I don’t see much justice in a punishment that is (by definition) infinitely disproportionate to the crime.
The only goal I can personally think of for keeping the damned around suffering forever, is to always be able to always go back and look at them - either as an object lesson for others of how absurdly bad the punishment for failing God is, or just because God likes to watch. Which gives us either Darth Vader-style management, or sadism. Either way, not so great.
Yeah - that is probably the best idea. I need to think about this a bit, get my basic knowledge up to date and see where that takes me. Sounds like an interesting discussion, although I am not sure what I could bring to the table except the OP.
Give me some time to formulate this and lets see where we end up.
(Apologies for the hijack)
I look forward to the thread, but note that Bob Wright’s recent “Evolution of God” has a lot of blow-by-blow history of early Islam; both the facts of history and the development of religious ideas. Highly recommended.
Note taken thanks, I will see if I can get this book consumed before I post. Thank you for your contribution.
I agree about the smoke/torment dichotomy. However, it is Hades which is cast into the Lake of Fire- Revelation 20:14. Another thing that points to it’s temporal nature- the passage echoes the language of Isaiah 34:9-10 which prophesies the Doom of Edom/Idumea, which is about 2000 years past.
I’ve gone into my belief that the Lake of Fire/Gehenna is shown in Isaiah 30:33, Daniel 7:9-10, Malachi 3:2-3, Hebrews 12:29 and Revelation 14:10 to be the Presence of YHWH God (or in Rev 14:10- The Lamb- Jesus) as experienced by those devoted to the Beast. And that this may be eternal or temporal- ending with their dissolution or perhaps their reconciliation (the ‘torment in flaming sulfur’ as a Fumigation-Purification Ordeal- one which may indeed hurt like Hell but still be ultimately restorative).
Regarding the Aionion Punishment vs Aionion Life in Matthew 25:46~
What is the purpose of punishment? To deter, to avenge, to correct or to end wrongdoing. When the offender properly repents & is restored, or pays the fine, or is stopped from ever offending again by dying, then the purpose has been fulfilled. The punishment now has its lasting effect.
What however is the purpose of life? To perpetuate & reproduce itself.
Thus, Aionion- ‘Perpetual or Lasting’ Punishment can come to a Perpetual/Lasting result by the restoration or death of the offender. However, Aionion- ‘Perpetual or Lasting’ Life can only have a Perpetual/Lasting result by continuing on & on.
That thus, Aionion Punishment can come to an end & yet be Lasting, while Aionion Life must be always continuous.
Thus endeth the Lesson. The Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.
But 20:14 also says that “even the Lake of Fire” will be part of the “second death.”
“20:14And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.”
I believe that bolded part is redacted in the Revealed Text, though.
Wouldn’t an eternal heaven be just as unjust, though? If nobody has committed crimes bad enough for eternal torment, nobody’s been good enough for eternal bliss, either.
It also couldn’t really be perfect bliss if you had any loved ones not there.
I don’t know. Heroin users tend to be pretty blissful even when they’re alienated from their families. Besides, it’s God and Heaven, so who knows. Maybe he’ll make sure all your loved ones are there, or make you forget about your loved ones who aren’t, or maybe heaven and the presence of God is so overwhelming, you won’t care about anything other than God.
Holy brainwashing?
But it’s supposed to be perfect bliss, not just bliss. Bliss that couldn’t be any better. Bliss with loved ones would have to be better than bliss without them.
Right, nobody could earn eternal bliss by their actions - it would have to be an unmerited gift. Which, I believe, is the official line.
A God that gives (everyone) unmerited bliss isn’t a bad guy - he’s generous, and that’s a good thing, even though his actions aren’t justified by justice or whatever. It’s only when you get one lashing out with unmerited punishment that you have to start questioning his character if you can’t justify the actions with justice or whatever.
And in my opinion, perfect bliss could be achieved through brainwashing - just peg the ‘bliss’ meter in their minds to ‘continuous orgasm’ and leave it there. Bliss is an emotion, and doesn’t require you to be able to so much as rub two thoughts together to maintain it. In fact I would argue that if you can rub two thoughts together, there must be a lapse in your bliss to allow it.
Maybe all that ‘constant praising of god’ that’s supposed to be going on is just mindless orgasmic screams of joy by the writhing faithful.
The traditional understanding is that being thrown in the Lake of Fire IS the Second Death. We live & then we die. All humanity is raised to life again & those sentenced to the Lake of Fire then die the Second Death.
But it says that even the Lake of Fire will die the second death.