Liberal attitude did NOT cost the election

The BBQ Pit
1

It’s only been two days, and I’m already sick of patronizing and paternal conservatives saying “gee, if you cute little democrats want to win more elections, you should be nicer and sweeter and stuff”. In particular, Bricker and Yosemite, both people who I generally respect as intelligent and articulate posters, seem convinced that we cost ourselves huge segments of the population simply based on attitude.

This is just a ridiculous claim. I suppose that it’s hypothetically possible that there actually were 200,000 Ohio voters who were undecided, and instead of basing their decisions on the war, the economy, the debates, their own moral beliefs, abortion, health care, their assessment of the candidates’ qualifications, their assessment of the candidates’ morals, terrorism, or astrology, based their decision on perceived condescension from message board posters and hollywood types.

And it’s also hypothetically possible that John Kerry and John Edwards made televised statements like “man, those Bush voters are such IDIOTS and BIGOTS” that I missed.

And it’s also hypothetically possible that Michael Moore’s stupid and regrettable quote about American voters being dumb became an underground rallying cry among conservative voters, who dashed from door to door with the alarming news, inspiring previously dormant voters to spring into action against that damn chubby bastard.

And it’s also hypothetically possible that all the major news figures who are sometimes accused of being liberals (like Dan Rather), actually ARE liberals, and they radiate “I deride you” rays which pass right through me, but which are sensed and responded to by conservative voters.

But until someone somehow demonstrates that one or more of those possibilities is true, please do me the favor of shutting the hell up. (Not that I’m excusing liberal jerkiness, which is just as bad as any other form of jerkiness… but to blame the election results on it is just ridiculous.)

2

Agreed. I’m pretty sick and fucking tired of it, too.

I’d run around popping in correcting the righties and the lefties in their unfair and overly broad generalizations about the election, but I’d be here all day. Suffice it to say that the gloating, patronizing and sarcasm received from the right stings much worse and tempts me at responding than the whining, whinging, bitching, pissing, moaning and conspiracy theories I’m getting from the left.

Fuck you all and get over it.

Yosemite, isn’t it bad form to bitch about people bitching about the elections and then take place in gloat-fests, and “you lefties lost because:” threads all over the boards?

Sam

3

Uh, could you copy and past a quote where I did that, please? I haven’t been very active in debating political issues (not to say I’ve never said anything, but I’m not as active as many here). Good luck in finding me even admit who I’m voting for in 2004. I can’t recall mentioning which guy I picked. (Though I might have. Good luck searching. ;))

So, I am not “gloating” and even if I felt that way, I wouldn’t be so tacky as to do it here. That would make me as obnoxious as some of the people I criticise, now wouldn’t it?

For the record, I’m not supporting the Bush supporters in their gloating. I think it’s unseemly.

And as for the “liberal attitude,” speaking for myself, I was talking mostly about the behavior on this board. Some of you people have behaved like jackasses, and as far as I am concerned, it hasn’t helped your cause. These people lost credibility in my eyes. There’s no two ways about it.

However, I’ve mentioned that I believe that on more conservative-leaning boards, the Republicans are probably also obnoxious and insufferable. But since this is a left-leaning board (and you know that it is), there are going to be more unsufferable liberals than unsufferable conservatives.

And no, I won’t shut up when I feel there are too many people behaving like jackasses. You have no right to expect that of me, or of anyone else.

As far as the democrat/liberal smug/asshole attitude turning the election—I’m not sure I ever made that claim, but I think there is truth in it. People like gobear and Jodi (and others) have explained how alienating the people you hope to sway to your side isn’t going to cut it. And, hoo boy, I sure saw a lot of that going on here. As I said in another thread, some of the attitudes and behaviors I’ve seen here have been described exactly by the likes of Rush Limbaugh. He described sneering, condescension, hatred, and that’s what I’ve seen here. So I’ll ask again, is that helping? Is it helping to prove someone like Rush Limbaugh right?

I can’t say whether the crappy attitude displayed amongst some contributed enough to the election, but it can’t be helping your cause.

4

Based on the OP, I haven’t been quite clear in my message, so let me try to refine it a bit.

I’m not saying that liberals need to be nicer and sweeter. I am saying that liberals need to understand the American center better.

I agree that a certain confusion arises between these two points. If I say, “Liberals deride those that disagree with them as bigots, as homophobes, as racists, as unenlightened, and THAT’S why the left lost,” I can understand someone drawing the conclusion that I meant the left lost because they were mean.

But no. I’m saying that because liberals do not understand that the other side has reasonable arguments, because they reject the other side as bigoted homophobic racists, they were ill-equipped to respond to the majority of Americans.

Do you see the distinction? I’m not saying insults were why you lost this election. I’m saying insults are symptomatic of the mindset liberals have about opposing views, and that mindset lost them the election.

  • Rick
5

Maybe not attitude, but certainly approach. I know it’s hard to believe, but screaming at people and taunting them, calling them stupid and mocking their faith really doesn’t win people over.

6

Whatever. Liberals did something wrong in a big way to lose. Is it attitude? is it position? Whatever. A little introspection would do you some good, MaxTheVool, rather than lashing out at those of us who carried a more acceptable message this time.

7

Yosemite, While going over yesterdays’ glut of election threads, I reviewed the post in question and it appears I misread what you were saying. I had thought it was in Rick’s gloat thread, but I must be smoking dope.

However, my question had nothing to do with you gloating, or who you voted for-I never said you were and I didn’t ask who you voted for, I don’t care. And I’m not asking you not to speak up when people are being jackasses-what would the pit be without that?

Sam

8

I don’t understand. It looks to me as if people are venting. Heaven knows that I can say some awfully dumb and vicious things when I am angry or despairing. That doesn’t mean that the things that I post when I am emotional reflect the way I really think and behave in the real world.

9

No shit Sherlock. As if the right doesn’t engage in the same tactics by shouting, yelling, and calling us on the Left names as well.

But the overarching point, I agree with. I am a steadfast Liberal (with occassional Libertarian tendencies) who came from conservative roots. I grew up a fan of Limbaugh and used to be extremely wary of liberal politcs. I more or less understand the mentality of a conservative.

And I do think that a lot of (social) conservatism is steeped in bigotry and ignorance. I would be dishonest if I said otherwise. This is just what I feel.

However, when courting the middle or arguing with the opposition, the last thing I’d do is attack the people I’m arguing with as bigots or homophobes or ignoramuses. It only serves to further solidify their opinion as leftists being a bunch of effete, condescending, ivory tower jackasses. It does absolutely no good to our cause. As Liberal pointed out, the average person doesn’t like being called an idiot or bigot for his beliefs. Even if you think it’s true.

The middle of America is clearly socially conservative. If we want to court them on social issues, we have to frame the argument in their terms. We have to do it in an inclusionary manner without being condescending or judgmental. (Even though I feel the right is every bit as judgmental as the left.) That’s the only way forward. Outside of big urban areas, America is overwhelmingly conservative. We have to seek out the reasoning for this social conservatism (Christianity) and frame the argument for Liberalism within this framework.

10

You people have convinced me. I’m pulling my floral print Nerhu jacket out of storage, putting on some love beads, and from now on I’m going to pass out flowers while extolling the virtues of love and peace around the world. I will recite my mantra whenever unhappy thoughts pass through my mind and do my level darnedest to exude peace and understanding. If somebody’s misery should sneak past my defenses I will push it out of my little mind it because this is, indeed, the best of all possible worlds and the Republican Party The. Best. Party. EVER! How I missed that before the election must have been because I hadn’t been taking my goody-goody gumdrops and I turned into Mr Grumpy Pants. Please accept my heartfelt apology.

11

Yup. They are venting. Today. But when the attitude has been displayed here in much the same vernacular (at least by certain handful) for months on end, it ain’t venting. It’s opinion honestly expressed. And it’s offputting.

12

I’ve never considered myself “liberal”, and I don’t recall calling people bigots, homophobes, or racists, and I don’t generally think in terms of “enlightened” or “unenlightened” although I may plead guilty to calling some positions unreasonable or ignorant. Still, I feel that the broad brushes need to be trimmed back here. Some of “the other side”(and this holds no matter which side you happen to be on) have reasonable arguements for thier positions. Some have unreasonable arguements for their positions. Some have despicable arguements for their position(think David Duke). Given the large amount of apathy in voters in general I’d say there is a reasonable arguement that many of them have NO arguement for their position. Some probably flip coins in the voting booth, or vote based on someone else’s recommendation(parent, spouse, friend, etc.) with no thinking of their own whatsoever. To appeal to these voters, and I’d bet good money there are more than 3.5 million people who fall into these categories, you need a broad array of campaign techniques. Claims about what the “majority” or the “center” or whatever feels, how to reach them, or their decision making processes are BS.

Enjoy,
Steven

13

Well, duh. Who disagreed with that?

The point I’m trying to make is not that it’s OK to scream, taunt, and call people names. The point I’m trying to make is that however much of that went on on the SDMB (and there was certainly some, but it was certainly not from ALL liberals) (and there was certainly some on the other side), it did NOT decide the election, or anything close to it.
What did I, personally, do to try to get Kerry elected? I gave money to his campaign, and to related organizations. What will I do next election? I’ll do the same thing again.

And, believe me, while I don’t think of myself as one of the more obnoxious liberals on this board, if I were on the undecided_voters.com message boards, I would have an attitude even more polite and open minded than I do here. Different behavior patterns are appropriate in different contexts. The SDMB has never been rife with undecided voters carefully weighing the arguments made by both sides.
One final point: While passion and anger may do some harm to a cause, it can also do good, serving as a galvanizing and unifying force. A lot of people really hate President Bush. If they all pretended to just honestly and cheerfully disagree with him as a gentleman, well, maybe they would have pissed off fewer undecideds (if, in fact, any undecideds were decided by that anyhow), but maybe they also would have galvanized their base to the extent that they did.

14

We should be decorous and respectful? You guys kidding?

He looked you right in the eye and told you he was certain that Saddam was a desperately important threat, can’t wait, gotta go to war right now. It wasn’t true. I call that either lying or incompetence, but you want me to say its a fib, a white lie, and an oopsy-daisy?

People are dying over this, even as we speak! Perhaps we shouldn’t say “dying”. Perhaps you would prefer “life systems challenged” or maybe “vitality hindered by circumstances of being shot to pieces”. Something decorous. Respectful.

What does it take to get through to you people? He bullshitted you! And you sit there and tut-tut at us for not being sufficiently respectful? Good God, what next? Ted Bundy was a bit too assertive in his dating techniques? Mike Tyson has poor impulse control, and exotic tastes in cuisine? Lee Harvey Oswald had poor target selection techniques?

I don’t think you want respect, I think you want euphemism. I think you want to dress up the facts so that they aren’t quite so ugly, or maybe you want to pretend that the facts aren’t ugly, its just us saying that they’re ugly. But it ain’t so. It just ain’t so.

I can face that. You can’t. And you want to blame me for it.

15

One last thing that kind of irks me about this whole situation: This board is heavily left leaning. So whenever something happens that is worth commenting on, lots and lots of liberals comment on it. The level of politeness and understanding in those comments will follow a bell curve, with a few totally outrageously obnoxious, a few utterly calm and precise, and the majority somewhere in the middle. It’s easy for you minority of conservatives (and Brutus makes a speciality of this) to look at that thread, respond only to the most rude/dumb/misspelled/poorly-argued liberal point, and say “see how rude/dumb you liberals are?”. But that’s really not representative of the majority of liberal posters, or the majority of liberal posts, any more than Michael Moore or Barbra Streisand speak for liberal America.

16

elucidator wrote

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ve been hearing this non-stop for too long. And guess what? We got together and voted your message and your candidate down. Try again in another 4 years.

17

Oooh, incisively rebutted there, Bill. Would you like to actually address what Elucidator said?

18

I was listening to a conservative talk show last night on the way home from work. JFR, I find talk radio to be entertaining at times but WGY is all conservative, all the time and I was curious what this right wing asshat had to say.

He said that in order to heal the country, the democrats should move more toward the right and start to compromise on issues of economics, faith(?!), and foreign policy. He then went on to say that if the right goes even further right, so be it. So democrats (or as he says, Liberals–with the vitriol dripping from his tongue) should compromise, but the right can keep on sticking to their guns (no pun intended) and make no concessions on their end. :rolleyes:

This guy claims Rush Limbaugh as his “hero”, so I tend to lump him in the “entertainment” category and have no respect for anything he says.

19

Your point is excellent, and similar to that expressed by gobear in this thread.

My viewpoints were formed from a multitude of resources, but I must admit they were hardened right here. Twenty-three different threads screaming about the president from the length of his eyebrows to the brand of shoes he wears. Not for a few days, but for a few months leading up to Tuesday. Other posters would question or argue a point, and the response was as you’ve observed regarding condescension and hate. When I tried to make it known that this seemed to be a little clubhouse and anyone not leftie was an outsider, I got the same raft of shit. Now, two days after the election, I read that some are bitching about “gloating” threads? Puh-leese. :rolleyes:

My Dad used to say that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Offering a convincing argument is a good way to do that, but a convincing argument isn’t stating that “X is a shithead”, and offering “cites” from independent sources such as xisashithead.com. It became old after a while, and Tuesday was a demonstration of which group of pissed-off hardheads had a bigger army at the polls.

We can try to talk again over the next four years, but how far we get depends on everybodys attitude.

20

Wait. Are you under the strange (but apparently common) delusion that electoral victory magically confers objective correctness to the winning belief? Did this win by the Republicans magically make Bush NOT either an out-and-out liar or an incompetent :wally ? I don’t think so.

He remains a liar. He remains incompetent. The fact that he snowed enough people (or, even more sadly, enough people don’t care about his actual ethical framework) to vote for him is beside the point, and only affects the actions taken next. His electoral victory does not suddenly rewrite history to make Saddam actually HAVE WMD or to make us actually finish the job at Tora Bora instead of gearing up and away to Iraq or to make the post-invasion plans for Iraq actually be competent and smart military strategy.

He’s still the President. He didn’t suddenly become a good one just because he got a majority.