Libertarian is STILL an idiot.

Understood? Glad you do, I sure don’t. Seems like a bit of nitpicking to me considering some of the amazingly crass things I’ve read in the Pit that didn’t get half the tsk tsk that this one is getting.

I don’t care what Libertarian/Liberal/Liberace (my personal suggestion for his next Maddona-ish transformation) calls himself but Pitting it doesn’t seem any less worthy than almost any other thread going in the Pit right now.

So again I say, glad you understand lissener because all I get from it is a big “because I say so.”

lissener, please grow up, and let it go. Pit Lib for a position he’s hammering on, if you insist on pitting him (I thought he struck a losing it note in the “not gonna vote 'cause it’s Kerry/Edwards” thread – maybe you could go after him on that).

… My mom thinks I’m original…

::sniffle::

Is it just me or does Lib seem to have a very different way of dealing with Dopers than he did a couple of years ago?

Please clarify the perception you had of his manner a couple of years ago. He strikes me as going from “suffer the little children” towards us all at times, to “alas for you lawyers and Pharisees” at other times. He does seem to be more consistent with the “lawyers and Pharisees” approach lately, but I think it’s just because he decided to vote for a regime change come November; he’s got the prospect of pulling the lever for a Democrat hanging over him, and the dreadful anticipation of such an act is eating away at him. There can be no relief until the deed has been done, so he’s a bit cranky, and is likely to remain so for the next four months.

I certainly don’t think Liberal is an idiot.

I don’t always agree with him and I’m not that hysterical over his political thoughts [that’s because I’m not an American], but I don’t mind him. I like his sense of humor.

That’s all. Sorry folks.

Hey, Lib’s a really bright guy.

Kinda rude at times. Kinda mean at times. A little full of himself at others. But basically a good guy.

Well. I’ve already explained why I changed my username several times in several threads, including the announcement of my intention to do so before it ever came about. So, Lissener, if it will help any, I’ll give you some of the background on what caused me to consider the decision at all. The process turned out to be something like the man who had discovered that his real father was the obnoxious old man who lived next door.

One evening, as my wife was posting, I was flipping channels trying to find something on TV. It was one of those times when absolutely nothing was on except reruns and hohums. Hitler. Hitler. Strong abs. Hitler. Fox News talking head. MSNBC talking head. CNN report on the dangers of Atkins. I paused there a bit. Hitler. Gemstones from Asia. Rerun of Sahara lion pride. Hitler. And then something interesting… What movie was this? Excellent acting. Clever, crisp script. Top class photography and directing. Smooth editing. After a bit of disorientation, I recognized the Oval Office. Ah, maybe this will be interesting. Something about a war perhaps, or a national crisis. Suddenly, the close up revealed Martin Sheen. Oh, shit. Not this guy. Please. But just as I reached for the button, John Spencer’s familiar face filled the screen. What a great actor, underappreciated and unheralded. I had long been a fan. The framing of his concerned expression was perfect as he exclaimed, “She’s a Republican, Jed!” Sheen removed his glasses and looked up. “She’s an American, Leo.” Without even having any prior context, the drama was thick and interesting. It had dawned on me by now that this was that show I’d heard about before: West Wing — the liberal White House, filled with liberals liberalizing liberally. My thumb hovered over the “channel up” button, but I just couldn’t take my eyes away from the screen. I love good cinema, no matter what the subject matter, so long as the elements are good. And these elements were near perfect. “What if she doesn’t want to come to work for us?” Spencer asked as Sheen rose from his chair. “Appeal to her sense of duty,” he responded, “I’m serious about this Leo. Hire her.” Spencer’s gripping expression of resigned acceptance was nothing short of inspirational acting, and the director’s capture of it with a circling camera was brilliantly timed. After a short while, I was able to piece together what this was about. Jed was the president, and Leo was his subordinate. Vice-president, I thought at the time. They were hiring some sort of notorious Republican, and I wondered why. Long story short, it turned out to be a woman named Ainsley Hayes, beautiful and brilliant, insightful and pleasant. I had expected them to give her loaded dialog to make her look like an idiot. But on the contrary, her role underscored the trust that the President had put in her. She was capable and strong-willed, yet demure and introspective. Her dialog, particularly with one called “Sam”, was not only impeccable, but written so that she actually made him look like an idiot. He would bark leftist platitudes at her a mile a minute, and she would respond without skipping a beat, knocking down every point and argument that he offered with reason and measured skill. It was clear that he was no match for her. I guess what knocked my socks off was that the show did exactly what I hadn’t expected. It introduced a character that most such shows would ridicule and make into a caricature, and gave her intelligence and charm. As it turned out, this was a marathon of West Wing, and I followed the story of Ainsely Hayes and her eventual acceptance by the characters whom I quickly came to know because of the excellent writing and casting. By the end of the day, I was a rabid fan. I learned a lot about the inner workings of the White House, and although there was much with which I disagreed, there was much that I strongly advocated, such as rights to privacy and so forth. With some reluctance and initial disbelief, my wife began watching with me over the next several weeks as we recorded every day’s episode. I began to understand certain things, such as how difficult it would be to disassemble the behemoth bureaucracy of the federal government. I learned a lot about the inner workings, the relation between a president and his chief of staff, the roles of various people, and the consequences of reckless naivity, such as when President Bartlett wanted to retaliate for the shooting down of an American plane. Attentive board members will recall a relatively recent period in which I probed with questions about West Wing in Cafe Society and things presidential and military in General Questions.

Not surprisingly, perhaps, I have many books about philosophy, including the philosophy of politics, and of libertarianism specifically. I dug them out, not having read them in years, and paid particular attention to the roots and history of liberalism. Although the Libertarian Party was formed by disgruntled Republicans in the 1970s, libertarianism itself has a long history, traced by some to Lao Tsu and Aristotle — at least the core principles. That, I had always known. And I had always known that “classical liberalism” was the same as libertarianism. But West Wing had showed me that modern mutations of liberalism, such as centrism, were born of compromise. Centrists came from both ends of the spectrum. And Jed Bartlett’s greatest moments were when he did not. They were when he acted from principle and conviction. He is a good man who leads with his heart. And he jokes about being the Democratic Party’s outcast and nemisis. In one episode about a filibuster, he decides to help an old man who is trying to help his grandchildren. He orders his staff to contact Senators and inform them of his plan. “Start with the two who like us,” he says, “and then go from there.” Other than the various wealth distribution schemes and Rooseveltian intrusions on liberty, I realized that this show was close to how essential liberalism would be implemented in a framework like the US White House. Jed Bartlett was like Harry Browne with common sense. Liberal had become a dirty word, even though both liberal and libertarian take their etymologies from the Latin liber — freedom. Libertarianism is one kind of liberalism. In my opinion, it is the best kind. And so, as I already explained to you, Lissener, I do not take offense when you call me Libertarian, even though you mean it to be offensive. It is rather like being called John when your username is Disciple. He is the most beautiful one.

Originally posted by Liberal

Well, John, or Liberal, I’m pleased [and kinda surprised] I wasn’t wrong. You are a beautiful person. Even though we think different about a lot of things. [not about West Wing, though. I’m an addict too]

Isn’t it a wonderful show! Even at its worst, it is the best television drama. Most feature films don’t put that much heart and sweat into their work. And the writers handle things very responsibly. Once in a while, there is a hint of preachiness, but most often they really do attempt to invoke the best of all sides.

True. But will it survive Sorkin’s leaving? I fear the quality and the focus may slip.

It is a wonderful show. Probably the best I’ve seen in years. I like the dialogues a lot and it’s not as sickingly sentimental as others of it’s kind.
Sadly we’re way behind over here. So no spoilers, please. :slight_smile:

HAAAAAAAA *putting fingers in ears *

Come to think of it; That doesn’t help, does it?

Possibly. I hope not, but that’s what a lot of people fear. I’ve even heard complaints about the lighting and so forth. But that would be because of the loss of director, Thomas Schlamme. But Zucker loves the show (and Sorkin) as much as any of us do. The season finale was very good, and so the new season could be promising. All it takes is a love of the task and the same closeness to the bone that Sorkin used in his writing.

A part of me will always hope he goes back and revives Sports Night.

For a non-US’er like me the US version of “liberal” is rather confusing, just like the US interpretation of “socialist” is. I see liberalism portrayed as something I even never would think of having a connection with it. I see socialism portrayed as if if equals communism.
To me as an outsider it looks as if you have no idea of what these words really stand for.

As for this thread: I have no diea why some members seem to have such a problem with Liberal. I never saw anything wrong in his posting style or in what he writes. Maybe I first need to take a course “US Politics Explaining Liberalism at US Standards” to have an idea what this thread is about.

Salaam. A

Heh…not gonna do it.

You know, a friend of mine had a similar experience that inspired him to become a lawyer. It’s really quite touching. He was watching an episode of Matlock one night…

(I keed, I keed…)

Libertarian/Liberal is not an idiot, and while I might not agree with him all the time, disagreement is certainly no basis for assuming idiocy.

When I first learned that Libertarian had changed his name to Liberal, I thought “eh, why not just change it to Lib, everyone calls you that anyway…” :slight_smile:

Frankly I think entirely too much hoopla has been spent on his username, he’s expressed the reason he wanted it changed and what’s wrong with that (I mean, we can’t all be fortunate enough to have discovered “Meatros”, now can we? :D). I don’t think he’s being deceptive nor do I think his intentions are such. If he had changed his name to ‘Communist Peet’ or something, then I’d think he was being deceptive.