both you and the person you responded to are flat out wrong in my case, a very politically active liberal who absolutely would not recommend to Dems to become ‘more republican’, yet who specifically cautioned people to ‘protest smart’.
So you’re no better at gauging a sympathizers motives/motivations and desires than you are at gauging the opponents.
wring - Yeah? Who you with and what have you done?
DocCathode - We weren’t there to get interviewed, we were there to shout a little at Rumsfeld. Like I said, we do a lot more as far as activism is concerned, and we don’t focus exclusively on street-theater tactics like that. But if the opportunity is there, why not take it?
what is this, a playground?
You claimed that folks having this opinion wouldn’t be active politically. I say that I am. ANything I post here to support that can easily be tossed aside by you as “that’s not what I consider active” or you can refuse to believe me.
however - considering the average American doesn’t even vote:
I’ve voted in all but one election since I’ve been eligible to vote (missed a single primary election in an off year where there was only one item on the ballot locally). this includes school board elections, county, state, federal, local officials etc. In case you’re wondering when I was eligible, 1972.
I actually know and am known by a number of local elected officials. Why? because I attend meetings - city council meetings, county level, board meetings of various public entities, school board meetings. Was video taped at one particular city council meeting long time ago, while I was speaking to the council - that clip was edited into a training film on corrections. Have spoken as a member of the public at many of these.
I’ve sat on committees with my local school board (semi large city, a state capital in fact).
I’ve also attended rallies, demonstrations and other such events. Including quite a few public meetings for certain local issues.
I currently sit on a couple of committees dealing with the issues of returning offenders. (one is a local one for the county, the other is a state wide committee).
I have donated to political campaigns, attended campaign parties, had signs in my lawn, done other things to help specific people get elected.
A news junkie, I keep on top of current events, and participate here and at least one other board on general topics, especially politics.
I also write letters to my local newspaper editorial department and have written pieces large enough to be a small editorial (yes printed).
My son (I’m a single mom) at age 8 was so politically aware, watched presidential debates, complained that he had to wait 10 more years to vote.
good enough?
Pfft. Gimme a break, wring. You’re not a real political activist unless you have a giant puppet.
Do you mean the kind like Bush 1.0 had with Reagan? Or the kind that when the acid finally kicks in, you decide needs to be set on fire?
damn! can’t I make do with a cardboard sign and a foam finger?
There’s a difference?
The second one’s more lifelike.
No, that’s pretty active. I would argue we’ve set two different political goals for ourselves, however. I’m still not sure what you mean by ‘protest smart’.
I long ago soured on extreme displays of political opinion. They don’t work. A demonstration, a gathering of a whole bunch of people, especially comparatively ordinary people, that has some effect, that’s worth doing. Especially when you are embarked on the grueling process of making an unpopular opinion acceptable.
You don’t want to stop traffic, people want to get to work. You want them to go to work, and you want them to think about what you said, and maybe talk about it with the co-serfs. You piss them off, all they can think about is you pissed them off. A man who is pissed at you will hardly ever agree with you.
Making people mad to change thier opinion is kinda dumb. Of course, making people afraid to change thier opinions is just plain evil. So, all in all, big puppets are cool. Pretty much every big city has its big puppet franchise.
Still where? In his seat? [… shrug …] I guess because the hearing wasn’t finished. At any rate, C-Span deleted the whole scene for its rebroadcast yesterday. I was going to record it, but now it’s as though it never happened.
It was joke, seelly capitaleest-lovin’ anarkeest. You say “He wait for reeff-raff to be removed”, I say “How come he was still there, then?”
Joke. Rumsfeld is reef-raff. Ha ha ha.
Because you wasted it. Shouting at Rumsfeld is pointless. You had the opportunity to express your views to what could have been an international audience. Instead, you yelled at a politician who simply ignored you.
Giant puppets and such get the message on the news. When the Republican national convention came to Philadelphia, the police raided a warehouse and seized giant puppets. The case was on the front pages for weeks after that.
The t-shirts and shouting got a two second clip with no audio. No message was conveyed. The opportunity was wasted.
They got specific mention in several foreign newspapers I read on a regular basis, and that on the same day it happened. Not just little lefty papers, mainstream media. That international enough for you?
No, because again it does no good other than to make you proud of yourselves.
Sure, you get a little ink. Big deal. Anyone can do that. Hell, I could sure do that within the next day or so if I really wanted to.
So some folks know you dislike the current administration. Where’s the news there? That’s like reporting that water is wet or grass is green.
When they sit you down and ask you why you dislike him I’ll be impressed. But right now the press isn’t taking you seriously, they’re just reporting on the freak show. Good job.
OK, well, when you’re impressed just go ahead and let us know.
Hey, demonstrate to me that you did anything worthwhile with that stunt and I’ll concede.
I do like the other item you mentioned. Rallies for a good cause (however one might define ‘good’) are usually worthwhile. They promote team-building and citizen self-identification with the cause in question.
But so-called ‘street theater’ is not about team-building and such. You’re more pushing people away than gathering them in.
Hell, I think I accomplished more politically with two checks (one to Dean then when he flamed out one to Kerry) than any amount of street theater ever could.
I think the real question is, was the stunt blue-shirt pulled off worse then doing nothing? Hopefully afterwards, he went off to work on more fruitful endevours, but if I have a chance to curse out Rummy, I’ll take it any day of the week as well.
Precisely, World Eater. Ben (aka Blue Shirt) has been long an active organizer in our group around a number of issues, and he does a lot more work than just the street theater currently under debate. And he felt the same way you do - a chance to curse out a major right-wing Administration official? Hell yeah.
Jonathan, how much good will you feel your check accomplished if Kerry gets elected and then follows through on his plan to send 40,000 more troops to Iraq?
I saw the speech referenced in the OP. I have to admit, I was pretty danged annoyed at Lieberman while he was speaking, as it seemed to me that he wasn’t so much interested in getting to the bottom of things as he was in making himself look good to the voters.
After I spent some time thinking about what he said, though, it seemed to me that what he was trying to say wasn’t “Why should we apologize for this, when the groups those people came from/“represented” (religious/national/whatever) never apologized for what they did to us?” but “The people/countries/religions those people came from/“represented” never apologized for their actions, whereas the USA is not only apologizing for its peoples’ actions but trying to make sure something like this never happens again.” There seemed to be a definite tone of moral superiority there.
Now I’m reading this thread and I’m beginning to wonder if I missed something in what he said. Did I conflate what he said with what one of the other speachifiers said, or did I really misinterpret it that badly? 