You say we are not to consider internal experiences. If you think about that statement for a while it become patentedly absurd.
All of everything we do, believe and say, begins as internal experiences.
Sciences’ biggest mistake is trying to separate the experimenter from the experiment. Try as you may, it will never happen.
First hand, eye-witness reports are allowable evidence in a court of law, but not in science, bullhockey.
NDEs are real and can’t be proven otherwise by any science available today. Quit trying to intimidate experiencers into believing otherwise.
Evolution is a theory as full of holes as swiss cheese.
It is the only basis for current science that says the consciousness is a product of the brain.
It is only a theory. Don’t tell NDEers they are wrong, you don’t know. Period.
True, my research isn’t something I’ve mentioned before. It was not necessary to do so.
What evidence do you have that I am perpetrating a hoax?
Do you have ANY proof that I am not an Etheric Scientist?
That I do not have a field-scanner capable of analysing the NCCF?
Any proof that anything I’ve said in this thread is untrue?
I expect an apology.
—You say we are not to consider internal experiences.—
No no no: the point is that getting to objective truth about reality (which would be something that exists outside of and regardless of subjective experience) is that it isn’t as easy as SIMPLY having an experience and reporting it. You have to build a case for it: get from point A (the experience) to point B (a conclusion about objective reality).
When I put a pencil in water, I experience seeing it as being broken/bent. But in fact it is not. When I see a balloon floating through the sky, it appears to be defying the law of gravity. But in fact, it is not (indeed the law of gravity is WHY it floats in the air). Observations tells us only that a particular thing was in fact observed: they don’t immediately tell us which interpretation of their implications is true.
—NDEs are real and can’t be proven otherwise by any science available today.–
Look, how many times do you have to have this explained to you? I don’t deny that NDEs are real. People really do have them. But YOU are claiming that NDEs prove that there is some sort of spirit that survives the destruction of the body and perhaps goes to an afterlife: but so far you’re arguements have
been very unconvincing. You can’t just assume it and then demand that science disprove it (especially when you refuse to allow even the theoretical possibility that it could be disproven: a sure sign of psuedoscience). You have to prove it.
—Evolution is a theory as full of holes as swiss cheese. It is the only basis for current science that says the consciousness is a product of the brain.—
Uh, no: evolution describes how things like brains developed from simpler forms.
The basis for the science of consciousness is the study of how the brain WORKS, and how different aspects of consciousness seem to consistently relate to various aspects of its operation.
—It is only a theory. Don’t tell NDEers they are wrong, you don’t know. Period.—
Evolution is a fact… but then that’s totally irrelevant to this debate. I’m not telling NDEers that they are flat out wrong about life after death: but rather that they have not established their claims as to what NDEs actually MEAN: what they tell us about the objective world.
NDEers that they are flat out wrong about life after death: but rather that they have not established their claims as to what NDEs actually MEAN: what they tell us about the objective world.
I don’t understand what you expect. NDEers have many times shown they lived while their bodies were brain dead. They tell what they saw and heard during brain death and the correctness of their information has been verified by doctors present. Some NDEers have got information from deceased relatives that was verified by other relatives. Some have seen into the future and accurately predicted events. There are hundreds of these cases.
I think what happens is that only the NDE researchers ever really read enough of them to understand what is really happening. Most people get their information from news, skeptical sources and such and really believe they know what NDEs are.
Incidentally, all serious NDE researchers who started out skeptical became believers. Now just saying that it happens to be true.
—I don’t understand what you expect. NDEers have many times shown they lived while their bodies were brain dead.—
What you fail to consider is that this might just as easily be grounds for reconsidering our concept of “brain death,” meaning that we have a lot more to learn about how the brain operates.
But actually, that’s conceding too much, because you are being very slippery about what you mean by brain death. “Brain death” does NOT mean that there is definately no brain activity at all. What it means is that the large order brainwaves we are used ot measuring drop to near flatline levels (but not TOTALLY flatline! Even totally brain dead coma patients have electrical activity, and cellular activity in the brain does not actually cease altogether during these instances of “brain death”): but that could just as well mean that when we measure these eletrical levels, we are putting too much emphasis on them as being a sign of cognitive function.
—Some NDEers have got information from deceased relatives that was verified by other relatives. Some have seen into the future and accurately predicted events.—
As has been pointed out, even if NDEs were entirely hallucinations, it would be a miracle if this sort of thing had NEVER happened. The laws of chance DEMAND that such coincidences happen from time to time, given the large number of people in these situations. Since you only notice the startling coicidences (and not the inaccurate stuff), this is self-selection, not proof of any special perceptive ability.
—Incidentally, all serious NDE researchers who started out skeptical became believers.—
You’re playing the exact same trick: you’re self-selecting out those skeptical researchers who became believers: but dismissing all the skeptics as not being “serious” purely by virtue of them not agreeing with your position. Of COURSE those who believe in NDE’s would tend to put more effort into defending the position! But that proves nothing in the bigger picture.
BY serious researchers, I mean those that have spent years studying the NDEs. Raymond Moody, Elizabeth Keubler-Ross, and others have spent their entire lifetimes with this work.
I think I will makeup a test to find out the knowledge of NDEs that one has. It would be interesting how much people know.
What would be the inaccurate stuff. These people don’t come back and make predictions on things that didn’t happen.
Daniel Brinkley made over 100 predictions on what he saw in his experience, he missed one. You could go back to his first book to get the predictions and then the rest you could figure out.
As for brain death, I am talking about the experiencer being in the morgue or in Pam Reynolds case she was brain dead for two hours. Absolutely no activity anywhere in her body. Her blood had been drained out of the brain. I think I have a good idea of what I am talking about.
In the skeptical literature only those things that can be explained are mentioned. I have reviewed, was asked to review, several books on NDEs by scientists. Without exception this was the case.
The proof is there in enough strength to show these experiences are real spiritual experiences. Those who wish to know the truth about NDEs will just have to read them for themselves. You won’t find the truth among the skepticals.
John Edward, noted psychic, has been on four different television shows this past month. On one there was a group of skeptics he read for. They were amazed and one said he was going to rethink his skepicism.
The spirit world is there and very real. .
But to the skeptic there will never be enought proof.
BY serious researchers, I mean those that have spent years studying the NDEs. Raymond Moody, Elizabeth Keubler-Ross, and others have spent their entire lifetimes with this work.
I think I will makeup a test to find out the knowledge of NDEs that one has. It would be interesting how much people know.
What would be the inaccurate stuff. These people don’t come back and make predictions on things that didn’t happen.
Daniel Brinkley made over 100 predictions on what he saw in his experience, he missed one. You could go back to his first book to get the predictions and then the rest you could figure out.
As for brain death, I am talking about the experiencer being in the morgue or in Pam Reynolds case she was brain dead for two hours. Absolutely no activity anywhere in her body. Her blood had been drained out of the brain. I think I have a good idea of what I am talking about.
In the skeptical literature only those things that can be explained are mentioned. I have reviewed, was asked to review, several books on NDEs by scientists. Without exception this was the case.
The proof is there in enough strength to show these experiences are real spiritual experiences. Those who wish to know the truth about NDEs will just have to read them for themselves. You won’t find the truth among the skeptical writings.
John Edward, noted psychic, has been on four different television shows this past month. On one there was a group of skeptics he read for. They were amazed and one said he was going to rethink his skepicism.
The spirit world is there and very real. .
But to the closed-minded there will never be enough proof until it touches him personally.
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Indeed it can be fascinating how much some people believe they know, when in fact all their knowledge of a subject is demonstrably false.
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Or you could provide a link or a short quote
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No, you don’t. You claim to have had a true NDE and to have travelled astrally. But your non-corporeal-consciousness-field has NEVER left the physical universe.
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And you complain of bias in others. So, anyone who is doesn’t believe in NDE’s after research is either close-minded, or a liar?
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Wow! John Edward, noted fraud and thief, was on television (which is always truthful and thorough and would never show anything just to get ratings) and looked good after
A-the tapes were edited. His misses were cut. As were the other skeptics saying how they were more sure than ever that Edward is a fraud
B-It could have been a live show. In which case the “skeptics” were shills, plants, etc-paid assistants chosen before the show and placed in the audience. Just like magicians do when choosing volunteers for certain tricks.
Edward has been debunked several times on this board. Your referring to him as a “noted psychic” convinced this skeptic of something I previously thought was impossible- your credibility has dropped still further.
RE-Skeptics
A true skeptic is not looking to prove or disprove anything. They simply look for the truth. A friend showed me a picture of a rat with a human ear growing from its back. Being a skeptic, I said that it was likely fake and that I could duplicate the picture with some liquid latex and glue. Several months later, footage of the rat was released by a researcher experimenting with growing human tissue in lab animals. The ear was deliberately sensational in order to impress people. But it was genuine. (and here lies what you have so far failed to accomplish or even grasp)It could be tested by objective researchers.
The spirit world is there and very real. .
But to the closed-minded there will never be enough proof until it touches him personally. **
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I have to say, I’m amazed at the tenacity of the posters here. Lekatt won’t be moved away from his opinion, as is his right of course. Those who disagree with him, and feel that he doesn’t understand scientific priniciples and how they differ from pseudo-scientific supposition, keep at it, trying to explain the differences. Well done.
But, Lekatt, you have to understand that you aren’t convincing anybody. You’ve failed to point out any real objective, unbiased testing that indicates that NDE’s are anything more than hallucinatory artifacts. You base your arguments on “research” by people with questionable credentials and accept anecdotal evidence as proof. It’s not, and, by itself, never will be.
Nobody here has denied that the people who experience NDE’s have had an experience, but the nature of the experience is still questionable.
Personally, I say, believe what you want, but stop proselytizing. It won’t do you any good.
And NEVER, NEVER, mention John Edward and call him a “noted psychic.” He’s a manipulative cold reader.
Perhaps you could name the show. I see from the John Edwards Friends.org website that he was on three shows in September, by their count. The new season of his syndicated version of Crossing Over began September 3; clearly he would have been on all of broadcasts of this show. His interview with Larry King was September 9.Transcript His visit to The View was on September 13. Was it one of these shows, or another one?
For those not familiar with The View, here’s ABC’s description of the program:
“The View, ABC Daytime’s morning chatfest, features a team of five dynamic women of different ages, experiences and backgrounds discussing the most exciting events of the day. . . . The show is produced by and features ABC News correspondent Barbara Walters – who appears on an average of three days a week – moderator Meredith Vieira (Turning Point), prosecutor-turned-commentator Star Jones, comedian Joy Behar and former Channel One News correspondent Lisa Ling.”
That is my major problem with him. I’ve found that some professional pyschics, mediums, etc have true paranormal abilities. Most do not. However, many of those individuals believe both that they do possess special powers and that the services they provide are genuinely helpful. John Edward’s body language, pupil response, voice stress and other indicators have made it clear to me that he knows he has no special abilities, and is simply fleecing vulnerable people.
You, Lekatt, are very much a member of the second group. The things you've experienced were the result of a drug. Think Matrix. You're a prisoner and a slave experiencing a false reality. Ridding yourself of ScrewTape poisoning is far worse than what Neo undergoes once he's been disconnected.
You'll go from having seen angels and sent your spirit soaring, to a just another human-one who was deceived at that.
BUT, and this is important, the Progenitors decided to give you their poison and make you a tool for their plans.
They thought you would be useful in furthering their goals.
Which means you have the potential to hinder those very goals.
But first, you must rid yourself of their lies and illusions.
Question everything you hold true-let go of all you ideas of how things are: life, death, God, yourself, everything.
It will be painful and unpleasant.
But when it is done, you shall walk out from their world of facades and flourescent bulbs into a realm of marble temples and a thousand thousand stars.
This statement above doesn’t exactly help his credibility.
I am of the opinion that it’s impossible to prove that NDE’s are more than simple halucinations. lekatt may believe that they are more, but it’s just not provable.
He comes here and says he has proof when in reality, he doesn’t. I don’t think he understands what proof means. Even though many of you have done a marvelous job trying to explain this to him, he either can not comprehend, or does not want to comprehend.
When I started reading this thread, I was angry with him for being so obtuse. But now I feel quite sorry for him.
WoW, sounds cool !
Doc, could you docter my brain so I could see those things, please.
I will remain online all night, so you can access my NCCF, thanks.
Is ANYBODY reading my posts? I have proof that some NDE's are more than simple hallucinations. It is simply that like a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, it's a few hunded pages long nad consists almost entirely of technical jargon that requires years of courses to understand.
I am looking for another Doper who is willing and qualified to look at my data.
Is ANYBODY reading my posts? I have proof that some NDE's are more than simple hallucinations. It is simply that like a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, it's a few hunded pages long nad consists almost entirely of technical jargon that requires years of courses to understand.
I am looking for another Doper who is willing and qualified to look at my data.
The true beauty and wonder of it is that EVERY human is born with the ability to live in a universe of mystery and spectacle!
Play with puppies. Buy a bottle of bubbles at the dollar store. Look at the moon.
Latro, you don’t have ScrewTape poisoning. If you want to see the glorious world I describe, you can. Open your senses and let the world in.
Right now, I’m pressing little pieces of processed dinosaur bones and extinct plants(plastics are made from oil. Oil is ancient organic material). Each time I touch one, a tiny surge of lightning rushes to a tiny bit of glass. The glass sends out more lightning. Some of that goes to great glass vessel filled with strange vapors. A particle gun fires electrons at a magnetic screen. And letters appear on my monitor.
There's a Doper with the name Dr Lao. A quote from the movie sums things up rather well "Everytime you hold a handful of dirt and see not dirt, but a miracle. Everytime you think 'I am alive. And being alive is wonderful.' Then, you are part of the circus of Dr Lao."
The magic is in you and all around you Latro. It always has been.
