I have had an ‘out of body experience’ plus dreams of the future.
No traces of ScrewTape. Wohoo! I truly have been to the spirit world.
I agree with your assessment, of course - but I have one nitpick. I would say it’s unproven, but why is it unprovable?
If people are really leaving their bodies, it could be proven IF an NDEer came back with information that they could not have had without leaving their body, and if that information was confirmed by an objective source. This was brought up about 7 pages ago, but Lekatt just ducked the issue and continued spouting his rhetoric. Notice the conspicuous absence of confirmation by the surgeon who performed the operation in the Pam Reynolds case Lekatt keeps talking about.
To say Lekatt’s claims are unprovable is to elevate them to a higher status than they deserve. They are simply unproven.
You will find the confirmation by the Physician on the tape of the TV show about it. He was on the show telling all about what happenen. Since then he has been quite. I am guessing he has been threathened by his peers. Don’t say it doesn’t happen. It is commonplace. The tape of the show, maybe you could get a copy from A&E for a price.
OK, maybe not unprovable, but very difficult to prove at this point in time. Agreed?
Actually, Blowero, in one account I rember, there was a surgeon expressing surprise at her knowledge of the instruments he used.
Dunno if it’s the same story, though or where I read it.
Yes, that’s it, the surgeon was holding up an instrument he had used in the surgery. Pam described it perfectly. It was the first time this kind of instrument was used. This account was shown on A&E television.
There are numerous accounts similar to this in the NDE literature.
Lekatt
That A&E program?
Was it Beyond Death? (A link it took all of ten minutes to find.)
Is there some reason you don’t provide a reference to something which, you claim, supports your position?
What about which September broadcast had John Edwards convincing skeptics? Any more information on that?
Really? If it's commonplace then you shouldn't have a problem providing proof of it.No, it is not “Beyond Death”
Don’t have time to look a lot of things up. If one is interested, there are many NDEs, on my board. Many books written by NDEers, etc. There is no scarcity of material. I just point out most get their NDE knowledge from media and skeptical sources.
If you want to find out about the experiences, the place to go is to the experiencers.
There is this feeling in the scientific world that such things as spiritual experiences are only for the ignorant and superstitious.
Nearly everyone here talks to me as if I was less knowledgeable than they. It is ok. When you read you will understand.
This thread is over 300 posts long, and FINALLY, Lekatt mentions something that COULD conceivably be considered evidence for his claims - something which is not shown on his website. But then he says he doesn’t have time to look it up. For a minute there, I thought we were getting somewhere. What was I thinking?:rolleyes:
—Yes, that’s it, the surgeon was holding up an instrument he had used in the surgery. Pam described it perfectly. It was the first time this kind of instrument was used. —
There are no alternative explanations for this? That she saw it before or after being flatlined? That someone discussed with her what the operation would involve?
That’s just what I was thinking. It seems likely that the instruments would be there ready for the operation beforehand, where Pam could see them. Why would they drain the blood out of her head and THEN bring the equipment in? Unfortunately, we can’t have any kind of meaningful discussion about it, since the 2 people who saw the show can’t even remember what the show was called.
blowero
That material was available on the very first post I made in this thread. No one bothered to read it. It is discussed in the “wildcard.”
I feel like Eeeore, everythings my fault.
http://www.nidsci.org/articles/alexander/bestevidence.html
If Pam could have seen the instruments or had the surgeon discussed them with her before the surgery, don’t you think that would have come out.
I can’t tell you the order in which the doctor worked, but he was very surprised at her information.
I don’t want to play your games any more. I would not want to go through life mistrusting everything and everyone I met.
There is plenty of material available, as I said pages ago. Just read the material.
Look up the surgery on the net, do some work for yourselves.
I am an emergency room nurse. About a year ago we received a patient by ambulance in full cardiorespiratory arrest. No pulse, no effective cardiac rhythm ( refractory ventricular fibrillation ). Patient had been in arrest for at least 15 minutes prior to arival. CPR/ACLS in progress on arrival.
To make a long story short, we worked him for about 25 minutes without positive response. The physician in charge stated that we would defibrillate one more time and if no response we would stop. One last shock, and his heart converted to a beating rhythm, and continued to impove from there, later being admitted to intensive care.
AT NO POINT DURING HIS STAY IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS HE CONSCIOUS. Most of the time he was technically dead.
The next day, one of the ICU nurses called down and told us the patient wanted to see several of the ER staff. He named several of us by name, and described us to the ICU nurses. He said he wanted to see us in person “to make sure he wasn’t going crazy”.
During a slow time later that night we went upstairs and he called us by name without introductions. He told a story of floating out of his body, just below the ceiling, watching us attempt resuscitation. He said he knew our names from when we called out to each other while working on him. One thing I found especially fascinating was that he said when we defibrillated ( shocked ) him, he would be pulled back into his body for a few seconds, then end up back floating by the ceiling a few seconds after. The last time we defibbed him he was pulled back in and became unconscious. At this point he had a pulse and improved.
We have talked quite a bit about it here. Some of the staff think maybe he was actually semi-conscious the whole time, his brain remaining oxegenated and at least partly functional due to effective CPR. Something akin to anesthetized surgical patients retaining the sense of hearing and being able to relate the conversations of the operating team after they have been awakened.
Others in the group here believe it was a NDE. We reason that this would explain the out-of-body viewpoint and the retention of sight and cognitive abilities by the patient even though he was to all intents and purposes dead when we were together in the ER. There is no other way he could have known our names, either, as his family was not allowed in the room during the resuscitation.
None of us have any experience in this matter and when I stumbled on this newsgroup I thought I’d post and see what you all thought.
Just another one of those stories.
—If Pam could have seen the instruments or had the surgeon discussed them with her before the surgery, don’t you think that would have come out.—
No. Most of the stuff people dug up on Edward didn’t just “come out.” People had to look and think, instead of just believing at the first sign of possibility.
From the September 27 issue of The Economist:
(emphasis added) If you want to pay the money, this article can be read here.
So it appears that out-of-body experiences can be caused by human intervention.
Sua
SuaSponte
This article was discussed earlier. One patient. Another form of brain mapping. No evidence of the existence of consciousness in the brain. No hard evidence of anything that will point to the brain as the producer of consciousness.
The story does point to the scientific communities desperateness to come up with something in the wave of information contrary to their beliefs.
Keep reading.
When I was 41 years old and a mother of 4 small children, I was in liver and kidney failure and had been a patient for 2 months in Presbyterian Hospital, Pittsburgh Pa.
I had a sudden lethal gastric hemorrhage requiring 12 units of blood . This happened in a small bathroom beside my bed and the other patient in my room (near the window) immediately used her call light.
As the nurses helped me into my bed, I suddenly experienced a penetrating blinding white light in my eyesight and I asked someone to “turn off the light” – (please) – or to “close the windows.” I had undescribable pain through out my entire body – it seemed unbearable and I was moaning and shivering.
Next I remember feeling “heavy medical equipment” on my body and the activity of many people around me. I heard someone say “60?” “30?” and immediately I felt that I was becoming “numb” and “cool.” I pressed my fingers against the side of my leg under the covers – and “yes” – I had no feeling!!
The next moment I felt that I was traveling feet first, at a very high rate of speed, down a never ending hallway. I raised my head a few times and it seemed that the floors had a “converging checkerboard” look…it was an unending tunnel. Next, I realized that I felt no pain and that I had wondrous mobility and intelligence and peace. I looked downward and I saw a hospital bed? and I wondered as I looked at the figure in the bed – if it was me? It didn`t look like me…it looked so very small! and I saw the room was full of doctors and nurses. I felt pity and sorrow for them – as my sense of well being was overwhelming!
I saw my husband entering the front entrance to the hospital, and I saw him talking to a man at the elevator entrance in the lobby. I seemed to be moving “further away” and it seemed that I had some sense of direction. I was surrounded by the warmth of the most wonderful love I can ever describe and I felt that I was not alone. I felt that I was “speaking” without words. I felt exhausted.
I knew that I was going on to a new life or some new assignment. It seemed that I was “moving to the right” and traveling further and further toward my “new assignment”. I was so intensely happy and secure basking in this sense of well being and intense love. The atmosphere of where I was did not seem new to me at all…I had no intention of ever leaving…and in a split second, I felt a “heaviness” and then excruciating pain through out my body.
I was aware that “I was back” and I also realized that I was indeed going to recover! I wanted to tell the persons working around my bed…I tried and tried…but I was too weak or unable to speak.
Immediately following this episode…I could hear them talking in ICU…and they told me that all my liver and urine reports were coming back normal. Previous to my collapse, my body was ridden with toxins and my urinary output had been only 1cc. per day. I finally returned home to my family after a total of 3 months hospitalization.
I was frail and weak…89 lbs. I was laying on a bed in our upstairs bedroom. I always needed help to get out of bed, but this day I was alone. I was laying on my back, so I tried to sit up forward, bracing myself on one arm. As I did, I looked over my shoulder to my pillow and realized that I had seemed to separate from my body…I was sitting forward…but I saw my body and head still resting on the pillow!! I immediately dropped backward onto my pillow!!! And, of course, stayed there until I could call out for help???
For many years I could not talk to anyone about my experiences…and when I tried I became very emotional and would begin to cry. But I am happy that now people have become more open with the NDE subject.
I am a RN, went back to work part time after a 1 year recovery and worked often in ICU or the ER and it seemed to me that patients in my care seemed to rest and generally do so much better when I was present for the shift.
I am a totally changed person since my NDE. I see life in a very spiritual way…and recognize that we are all indeed living spirits in the divine master plan of the universe. We are all living moving parts in the riddle of life!!!
OK, last story, more at http://ndeweb.com
I do understand. When it comes to NDE’s or OBE’s you are less knowledgable than I.
I have a PhD in EtherPsychology. I've logged thousands of hours of field research. I have gigabytes of factual and verifiable data.
You, on the other hand, have ScrewTape poisoning. Your NCCF has never actually left your body. Your "evidence" consists of purely subjective stories-which you could have written yourself.
Your site and cites have shown me many cases of others talking about Pam Reynolds, but not Pam Reynolds giving an account in her own words. Nor have I seen an interview with her doctor, verifying her story.What’s matter Doc, can’t read.
Go bother some other thread, troll.