—This article was discussed earlier. One patient. Another form of brain mapping. No evidence of the existence of consciousness in the brain. No hard evidence of anything that will point to the brain as the producer of consciousness.—
Can you give an example of what you WOULD consider evidence of the brain as the locus of conscious experience, for which it is required for there to BE any conscious experience?
Obviously, for you, even the most complex brain mapping isn’t enough. Stimulations that create experiences isn’t enough. Demonstrating the function of cells and networks, and their importance to specific processes which make up consciousness, isn’t enough. Studies in which alterations to the chemical or physical makeup of the brain produce predictably altered states of consciousness isn’t enough.
I bet the only evidence you’d accept would be if you died and had a NDE in which Jesus Christ told you that it was so.
Lekatt’s attitude on exploring the brain genuinely confuses me.
On his page, Lekatt mentions that Alexander Graham Bell might think that a television actually contains tangible pictures(like paintings or photographs) or even the actual objects and people it displays. But, that upon disassembling and studying it, he would learn that it does not. He would find that it is only a reciever for outside signals and that the images are ( I know I'm massively oversimplifying here) essentially colored light.
Lekatt-If the brain is simply a reciever of consciousness, wouldn’t brain mapping prove that? And wouldn’t that be evidence that consciousness is not biological? So why aren’t you heavily in favor of studying the brain?
You always believed this. A great many other people believe this as well. The problem comes in when you explain WHY you believe this and a great many other people say “No, you can’t say the evidence conclusively proves life after death.” Beliefs are fine, but when you start passing them off as facts, as you did in the first proposition “Life continues beyond phyiscal death.” of your OP then you need real proof. You don’t have that proof. You’ve never had that proof. Refutations of what you present as proof are met with either scorn, or appeals to pity. You’ve used the “No True Scotsman” fallacy to death in this thread whenever someone mentioned a NDE which didn’t fit YOUR definition. You are not credible, and have shown no desire to debate, so why should we?
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I’m not tired of discussions, I’m tired of YOU. Your endless repetition of bunk and false interpretations of evidence. You haven’t proven that your starting proposition is true, so there isn’t really a point in following the inference. Life continues beyond phyiscal death. -> Existance of God. Falsehood can imply truth, but that’s not useful. It’s just a correlation. For the logical operation of Implication to have any real meaning you need to show that the first proposition is true. Truth can not imply falsehood. Prove the truth of your first statement, then we’ll work on the existance or non-existance of God part.
Or you could continue to spout meaningless doubletalk and remain completely closed to analysis of your “proof” like you’ve been doing since at least 1995. The SDMB community won’t put up with it for nearly as long as usenet has. Do a search on a poster named “seethruart” and you’ll get a glimpse of what you’re headed for on this board.
As a Psychologist, I am profoundly confused. Exactly what do you hope to achieve by telling people who have attempted suicide about an afterlife filled with unconditional love and happiness?
Yes, I believe in an afterlife where the good are rewarded with love and happiness. BUT, I do not approve of suicide. It causes horrible pain those who did care about the individual. Not only are they dead(painful enough even for theists-yes this person may be in heaven but it will be years before you see them again, and no phone calls, letters, or e-mail), but their actions (and sometimes their notes) say ‘Nobody can help me’. The survivors are left knowing that the deceased felt that they could not lessen his suffering-‘Mom and Dad, I love you. But, I’m killing myself because you can’t do anything for me. Either you really can’t help me and have failed as parents. Or I just think you can’t help me, in which case you’ve just learned your son has no confidence in you whatsoever.’.
You help a patient who has attempted suicide by making them feel hope and love in *this* world. You show them that you care.
You don't give them empassioned speeches on how successful suicide results in everlasting bliss.
Hey, if I were afraid of being called a bunch of names, I wouldn’t be posting here. In fact I have tried to end this thread.
Depends on what you call proof. I think scientific studies and documented experiences are close enough.
Show me memory cells, or stored thoughts and pictures before they become experiences.
Don’t read my site anymore, it is not what you are looking for.
All you will find there are things to attack and criticize. It is not good for you, all the negative thoughts.
You seem to regularly confuse evidence with proof. There is “evidence” of all sorts of stuff that isn’t true.
Only if you can show me the stored pictures in a computer, before they’re displayed. A series of magnetic fields and electrical pulses? That’s not an image. Keep looking.
You’re right. I went there looking for the “proof” you promised, but I didn’t see any. You might want to fix that.
After my NDE I volunteered for Hospice work. It is fairly common for NDEers to do that. Every two to three weeks my “assignment” would die and I would get a new one.
This kind of work is very important because the family nearly always quits visiting. The fear of death is so strong in our society nobody wants to be around when it occurs. I held a quite a few hands during their last moments.
My near death experience enabled me to help, when others couldn’t. I learned to respect the process and the feelings of those who were experiencing it.
I have listened to the intolerance, of many in this thread concerning the death and near death experiences of others. Now it is time for me to go.
I wish all and everyone the kind of love I experience while in the presence of the Creator. There is none greater.
There is nothing more here to do. Those who wanted to learn have emailed me and I am grateful for their support.
One would think it would be so simple to, you know, actually address the counter arguments when you’ve got such a strong and exclusive grasp on The Truth[sup]TM[/sup], but I suppose it’s just so hard to deal with those inconvenient little things like questions, evidence, and debate.
You have yourself to blame for this, you know. You didn’t start a debate, you started an assertion, and then you got indignant when it turned into a debate.
I actually would feel sorry for you, but the narrow-minded, obstinate, and obtuse tone of every single one of your posts makes me just not care that much.
Actually I just read an article link at fark.com where scientists have been able to recreate many of the symptoms of a near death experience by stimulating a certain part of the brain. It included the bright white light, and the sensation of floating a few feet above one’s body. I’ll try and find the article and post it for everyone.
Don’t bother friend. Our esteemed collegue lekatt has already decided that NDEs which don’t meet his guidelines aren’t really NDEs. Very interesting that he feels he can hold his, and certain other selected, NDEs up as evidence of an afterlife, but someone who reports an experience that is substantially identical “isn’t really an NDE”.
/sigh One of these days I’ll stop bothering to read this thread. If lekatt has survived seven years of trolling the newsgroups where he is considered somewhat of a celebrity what makes us think we can get him to honestly debate or re-consider his “proof”?
Oh well, good to see that even lurkers who read this thread aren’t falling for his BS.
(Heavy sigh now) True, but you wouldn’t know. You have Pseudotheizine poisoning. Your non-corporeal-consciousness-field has never left your body or the physical universe.
You want further proof of the poisoning, Leroy?
How about the fact that you leep talking about the love you feel for the posters in this thread, but you have taken to insulting them?
How can you feel unconditional love and call people names?